Friendly fire details and evaluation.

[«ßÔß»-Jaws-[CL]]

since I'm out of a decent Connection its useless to play, 4 me atleast...

Whatever that works is fine by me, but it, FF, would lessen the overuse of bombers and explosives.
It would also be less "random" use of weapons giving more stealth.

Cu all n hopefully I can be back sometime.../Jaws

 

[Mav3ricK]

I think it's imperative something must be done. You can't play when the entire USA team is using LAW/m79 like I've seen several times in Saigon. Put a stop to this noobing, Im so upset with all this I'm thinking on quit playing the game unless something is done.

"This wont have any effect since the people shooting to the feet would still do it as they get the kill" - Probably, almost sure, but if I'm trying to take the flag and they shoot me to the feet and die too, I might have a chance to take the flag later, otherwise It's impossible for me to take it.

The trial period went well, I don't understand why we can't enable FF. That's what trials are for, isn't it?

 

[SucceededKiller]

think it's imperative something must be done. You can't play when the entire USA team is using LAW/m79 like I've seen several times in Saigon. Put a stop to this noobing, Im so upset with all this I'm thinking on quit playing the game unless something is done.

We haven't had FF on for years and no-one has been bothered by it until recently when a few people have decided to say something about it.

but if I'm trying to take the flag and they shoot me to the feet and die too, I might have a chance to take the flag later, otherwise It's impossible for me to take it.

Would they not just respawn too?

The trial period went well, I don't understand why we can't enable FF. That's what trials are for, isn't it?

And when over 90% of the server hasn't voted? We could take that to mean they don't care and just like the server how it is, in which case that means an additional 893 or 307 "no" votes depending on if we include all players, or "active" players respectively.

I also think that enabling this solely because of "M79/LAW" is a terrible idea because it affects so many other weapons. I get that some of you see this as being somewhat "realistic" but that's not how the game gets played.

Take claymores/betties/mines. These are designed as defensive weapons, so people should be able to place them at chokepoints, but with FF on that becomes impossible because players just don't care and run over them anyway.

There are compromises though, and I mentioned them in my other post, that would potentially cater to both parties.

 

[Vmax]

And when over 90% of the server hasn't voted? We could take that to mean they don't care and just like the server how it is, in which case that means an additional 893 or 307 "no" votes depending on if we include all players, or "active" players respectively.

Your assuming that the 90% are potentially "no" voters when the poll tells us that most people(as a percentage) want FF on.

 

[Mav3ricK]

Well, I guess your answer could be synthesized in one word... No.

Vmax is right, you can't base your point on people who hasn't vote and presume they're all against FF.

At least, in the past, we could evade from that tube festival by going to private server. I remember one day we were Hells, Toxic, Flower, Solakim, Weber and I and we had a great time playing the game. I posted during the game how well the play was going and I didn't matter I was being beaten by Hells and others because they were all legit kills. (I know you can't relaunch it, I'm sorry, It's just that yesterday I had a really bad time playing the game with some players).

Could it be possible enabling FF like 3 months a year? Or sth like that. April, july and november for example.

 

[SucceededKiller]

And when over 90% of the server hasn't voted? We could take that to mean they don't care and just like the server how it is, in which case that means an additional 893 or 307 "no" votes depending on if we include all players, or "active" players respectively.

Your assuming that the 90% are potentially "no" voters when the poll tells us that most people(as a percentage) want FF on.

I assumed they could be no voters; but because I'm basing it around the idea that people that want change, will obviously vote to get it, whereas those who like the server as it is are just not bothering. I didn't mean to imply that they are almost certainly all "no" voters, as I know that isn't the case.

At least, in the past, we could evade from that tube festival by going to private server. I remember one day we were Hells, Toxic, Flower, Solakim, Weber and I and we had a great time playing the game. I posted during the game how well the play was going and I didn't matter I was being beaten by Hells and others because they were all legit kills. (I know you can't relaunch it, I'm sorry, It's just that yesterday I had a really bad time playing the game with some players).

I get what you mean about the kills. Whilst it doesn't really bother me, it isn't the most respectable way to get them and I know that their usage in close range gets to some people; I just don't feel happy making a change that affects the whole server when we have less than 10% of its population voting. If this was in a country's election, you couldn't then claim whoever won equally represents everyone's views in that country.

Even just looking at the first page of the stats, you can see not all of those people have voted and they have the highest scores on the server, the same applies when you sort it by rounds. We are missing so many votes from some of the people that play here the most.

That's where my issue lies with this, not because I don't like FF as some people on the server like to imply.

Could it be possible enabling FF like 3 months a year? Or sth like that. April, july and november for example.

That's another compromise that could be considered.

What we really need though are suggestions for getting more people voting. I thought having them be able to vote in chat on the server would encourage more to do it, but it didn't. I even wrote it in all caps so they can't miss it, and I hate all caps...

 

[Quagmire]

So i was against it too. I just didn t liked the gameplay with grenades-teamkill and all the other stuff.
By the way, on server we had 12 votes for and 10 (not 7) votes against FF.

But to the discussion:

- I would prefer a compromise, like one week FF on and next week FF off. So the server won t have the danger to lose many players of one fraction when you en- or disable FF for a long term (like 3 month).

We all know: Once you stoped this game for 3 month, you are not motivated to start it again, because you get rusty...


Or:

Why don t you enable FF only on hello-private server ? So the pros can play on private and the noobs can play with FF off ?

 

[SucceededKiller]

By the way, on server we had 12 votes for and 10 (not 7) votes against FF.

I assume you mean on the website? Some users decided to make additional accounts in order to mess with the votes so I didn't count them.

There is no HELLO private server anymore as it wasn't worth keeping it up when it had an average of something like 1 or 2 people a month.

A compromise probably is the best solution, as it appeals to both groups, but votes from more people would still be nice.

 

[Norbert]

By the way, on server we had 12 votes for and 10 (not 7) votes against FF.

A compromise probably is the best solution, as it appeals to both groups, but votes from more people would still be nice.

I agree. This game has to keep alive, so all player should become the chance, to play this game how they like it.

So one week FF on and one week FF off thumbsup0

 

[SucceededKiller]

First of all lets clear some things up.


1.At no point was it ever mentioned that the outcome of the vote would result in a change of server settings. The vote clearly asks if you liked friendly fire while it was trialled, not that this vote would decide if Friendly Fire was on permanently. This is something some of you appear to have missed.


2.You are all involved in the discussion. The thread is there, it has been there since the trial; there is no secret admin only discussion or a select group of people who are making decisions behind your backs. A majority of you, however, are choosing not to get involved; this is on you, as it’s a choice only you can make. Insulting us on the server and making up false claims in order to further your end goal does nothing to help you. I’ll give an example below from yesterday’s chat:

-Player1: SK, when r u turning on FF ?

-Player1: SK, i thought FF was 2 b turned on for the weekends

-[HELLO]-SK No, nothing is decided yet.

Admin1: We have not reached a decision as of yet regarding FF ...

Player2: a compromise was discussed

Player2: one week FF off one week FF on

-Player1: i thought the "yeys" won the vote for FF being turned on?

Admin1: it was... and it was trialed for a weekend ..

-Player1: so...?

Admin1: after that we are deciding on a way to keep everyone happpy

Admin1: only a handful of players voted and had their input

Player3:  who is "we"?

Player3:  and who is "everyone"?

-Player1: so what was the point of the vote?

Player2: in forum 12:10

Admin1: we as in admins and everyone as in player who liked and dislike

Admin1: FF ... vote was for the trial weekend

Player3:  no sir

Player3:  not "everyone"

-Player1: no it was not. it was to see about changing the rules

Player3:  what you did is give in to the unskilled

Player3:  that is the everyone you speak of

Player3:  call if for what it is and not bs us

-Player1: typical hello bullshit

Admin1: :/ well ... it was originally brought up to *help* witht the

Admin1: footing

Admin1: footing

-Player1: u guys caved in to the PUNKS!!! NOOBS!!!!!!

Player3:  just say we f ed you over it would be more accurate

-Player1: like i said typical hello bullshit

Admin1: I am sorry that you dislike the situation

-Player1: maybe the admins should read the FF forums again

Player3:  situation? yes...explanation..even more so

Player3:  sorry weak ass explanation

Admin1: dont have much space to type in detail

Admin1: dont want to make it long and boring

-Player1: well thats what the forums r 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Player1: Hells, we sure r getting the short end of the stick on this one

Player3:  pretty much i would just like a real explanation

Player3:  and not one that works on a 10 yr old

-Player1: well SK, r u goint to give us a real explanation on the forums?

-[HELLO]-SK There are at least 3 posts since the vote ended.

Player3:  funnt because if "we" you mean hairball vmax and canada

Player3:  then there isnt a we

Player3:  so i would like to know who "we" is

Player3:  i already know everyone is bs so no need to explain that one

-Player1: see Hells, no answer! Kids Pfff!

-Player1: i thought the "yeys" won the vote for FF being turned on?

No, the vote was for whether you liked it. There is an important distinction between the 2.

Admin1: after that we are deciding on a way to keep everyone happpy

Admin1: only a handful of players voted and had their input

Player3: who is "we"?

Player3: and who is "everyone"?

-Player1: so what was the point of the vote?

Player2: in forum 12:10

Admin1: we as in admins and everyone as in player who liked and dislike

The response from Admin1 is partially wrong. The “we” is everyone who decides to get involved, as I mentioned above, and the “Everyone” is everyone who plays on the server. You can all be involved, it’s just up to you if you want to be.

The point of the vote was to see if people liked it or not.

Player3: what you did is give in to the unskilled

Player3: that is the everyone you speak of

Player3: call if for what it is and not bs us

-Player1: typical hello bullshit

We haven’t given in to anyone, although the people you guys call “noobs” are a lot more polite.

No decision has been reached, the discussion is still ongoing as you can see in the forums, and no-one has been “bsing” anyone. I’ve been clear with why there is no decision yet, I’ve shown you guys who voted and I counted the votes fairly, so I’d like to know what this “typical hello bullshit” is.

-Player1: u guys caved in to the PUNKS!!! NOOBS!!!!!!

Player3: just say we f ed you over it would be more accurate

-Player1: like i said typical hello bullshit

Admin1: I am sorry that you dislike the situation

-Player1: maybe the admins should read the FF forums again

Player3: situation? yes...explanation..even more so

Player3: sorry weak ass explanation

Admin1: dont have much space to type in detail

Admin1: dont want to make it long and boring

-Player1: well thats what the forums r 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Player1: Hells, we sure r getting the short end of the stick on this one

Player3: pretty much i would just like a real explanation

Player3: and not one that works on a 10 yr old

-Player1: well SK, r u goint to give us a real explanation on the forums?

-[HELLO]-SK There are at least 3 posts since the vote ended.

Again, we caved into no-one and “f ed” no-one over. No decision has been reached and opinions have not been ignored. The vote was for if it was liked, and from the people that voted a lot did and quite a few didn’t. I also explained why there is no decision, and why a decision like permanent FF is is not currently being considered, and that’s because only 34 people voted; less than 10% of the server.


Lets put it this way; if the vote was detrimental to you, like doubling the amount of aircraft on maps or adding aircraft to maps without it, and only 34 people voted, would you expect me to do it? Mi-8’s and Hueys on Albany, Hue, Quang tri? The image for quang tri has an mi-8 on it, Albany is a landing zone...adding helis here is perfectly reasonable but again, with only 34 votes I wouldn’t do it as that is not an accurate representation of the server.


What I don’t understand is why this is not a real explanation? I have the entire server to think about, not just the few vocal people who change their attitude entirely when something hasn’t gone their way. I haven’t said “Oh well, no FF at all” but that we should work on a compromise so both groups are happy.


I'd also like to point out that those of you with rifles do considerably better than any "noob" weapon too.

So far the following have been suggested:


Alternating weeks of friendly fire being on and off - Probably the best choice.

Alternating weekends of friendly fire being on and off - This may have to be the backup choice if there is too much deliberate TKing.

Friendly fire on for whole months with a 3 month gap between them.


If you have other suggestions or want to give your opinions on these please do. Also, if anyone else here feels like you've been "screwed over" or some variant of this, please let me know.

 

[Hellsfury99]

I was player 3 in this.

Fair enough...and don't get me wrong....The end result may very well wind up having to give in to the noobs in order to preserve the server....hence the "giving in" comment.

What's the hold up in another ff weekend? Or having some time when it's on. This way you could get an idea on server population during both types of game play. 1 sample size isn't really enough to go on.

Also, do you have some kind of timeline for your decisions? For me personally hearing the "partially wrong" answer from the admin is what got me going.

Sk. You have done an unbelievable job and you very much deserve credit for keeping the server and game alive. Seeing you active again in game and on the forums has helped bring some order back.

Just keep us updated if you would and sorry my part in this. I may agree or disagree but you and the admins are the one's putting the time and effort into running the server. I just reap the benefits.

 

[SucceededKiller]

What's the hold up in another ff weekend? Or having some time when it's on. This way you could get an idea on server population during both types of game play. 1 sample size isn't really enough to go on.

Honestly, I had not even considered another FF weekend but I can certainly set one up for this coming weekend; hopefully that will encourage more people to get involved. We might even be able to make it a full week; Friday-Friday.

The figures for play counts are all from the stats that started last month. I grabbed a count of the total players and those that played at least once per day from the date I added the stats, as anyone who plays at least once per day will be affected by any FF decision. Grabbing just the weekends stats might be difficult as anyone who leaves before the game properly ends doesn't get counted but I can see what I can do.

Also, do you have some kind of timeline for your decisions? For me personally hearing the "partially wrong" answer from the admin is what got me going.

There is no deadline, at least not yet, although the middle or end of April should certainly be more than enough time to get more people involved. In the end, if people decide they don't like it even after a deadline the forums will still be here for them to voice that opinion. If we don't get many more opinions, I don't see the issue implementing alternating weeks of FF as that caters to both groups; then as people give their opinions during these weeks we can make the times when FF is on/off longer or shorter.

Sk. You have done an unbelievable job and you very much deserve credit for keeping the server and game alive. Seeing you active again in game and on the forums has helped bring some order back.

Thank you, and hopefully it can be kept up as there are not really any other games like this. The fact we still receive new players and have had 900 unique players in just a couple of months is also great news.

Just keep us updated if you would and sorry my part in this. I may agree or disagree but you and the admins are the one's putting the time and effort into running the server. I just reap the benefits.

There's no need to apologise, I get that this issue is one that a lot of players have strong opinions on and we need opinions from both sides so any comment is welcome.
My main issue was just with the talk about us "bsing" people when I'm being as honest and open as I believe I can be. I will also make sure you are all kept updated, and with this being the only thread on the subject anything regarding it will be posted here.

 

[SurfinBird]

What happens when you accidentally teamkill with booby traps, landmines and bouncing betties etc..?

The obvious answer to this will be for everyone to press Q, but the truth is a lot of people don't, which is probably because they forget, because i sometimes forget to do so.
The server needs to constantly spam in the messages "Please press Q to highlight friendly explosives" in capital letters. About once every few seconds would be ideal.

Overall though, FF is good because I must be the only one in Ho Chi Minh Trail and Cambodian Inscursion who doesn't use the grenade launcher.

And I like the idea of a compromise, having one week FF and the next with no FF.

 

[SucceededKiller]

What happens when you accidentally teamkill with booby traps, landmines and bouncing betties etc..?

You die and get -2 points I believe, I don't use them that often. But you will receive no further punishment like a kick, warning etc. The player could, in theory, decide to punish you by typing "ptk" in the console, which will have you kicked if it happens again though. How well it will work in practice, I don't know... It was just a way to allow players to "self-admin" to an extent for when you have players shooting their own vehicles.

I've not seen anyone ask why they were kicked or anything though so I assume it isn't being widely abused.

The server needs to constantly spam in the messages "Please press Q to highlight friendly explosives" in capital letters. About once every few seconds would be ideal.

Below you'll find the announcement:

Welcome to -[HELLO]-Bfv | All Maps !
We are considering modifying tunnel and box,
spawns. Give your opinion at:
forum.helloclan.eu/bfv/spawn/
THE 2ND FRIENDLY FIRE TRIAL IS NOW LIVE.
PLEASE PRESS Q AND LOOK OUT FOR FRIENDLY EXPLOSIVES.
ALSO, BE CAREFUL WHEN USING EXPLOSIVE WEAPONRY.
IF YOU ARE DELIBERATELY TEAMKILLED, TYPE PTK IN
THE CONSOLE. For more information visit:
http://forum.helloclan.eu/bfv/ff/
Where you can vote on if you want to see it
on permanently or not. You can also type:
FF like or FF dislike in the chat.
Enjoy your stay and have fun.
Check out your stats at:
forum.helloclan.eu/bfv/stats/
This is the largest server in Battlefield Vietnam!
THE 2ND FRIENDLY FIRE TRIAL IS NOW LIVE.
PLEASE PRESS Q AND LOOK OUT FOR FRIENDLY EXPLOSIVES.
With the biggest and most active community.
Visit our website: forum.helloclan.eu/bfv
THE 2ND FRIENDLY FIRE TRIAL IS NOW LIVE.
PLEASE PRESS Q AND LOOK OUT FOR FRIENDLY EXPLOSIVES.
Join us, and take part in events, clanwars & more.
To join -[HELLO]-Clan, visit helloclan.eu/bfv/join
THE 2ND FRIENDLY FIRE TRIAL IS NOW LIVE.
PLEASE PRESS Q AND LOOK OUT FOR FRIENDLY EXPLOSIVES.
Players who break the following rules will be
warned, kicked and then banned.
RULES
1.Racism & insulting will not be tolerated.
2.No chat spamming.
3.Use common sense
4.Recruiting and ramming are allowed.
5.Air main rape is only allowed on last flag.
The mi-8 cargo and Huey transport are exempt.
For a more thorough description of the rules
and to see the current list of admins visit:
forum.helloclan.eu/bfv/server/
THE 2ND FRIENDLY FIRE TRIAL IS NOW LIVE.
PLEASE PRESS Q AND LOOK OUT FOR FRIENDLY EXPLOSIVES.
Help keep -[HELLO]-Bfv | Allmaps running by donating.
To donate or report players, visit: forum.helloclan.eu/bfv

Players are informed quite a few times, but placement had to be careful so it wasn't spammed or stopped other sections making sense. If there is somewhere you think I should place it, that I haven't, please let me know.

 

[Gunner]

As Hells said, more props for SK, not only for helping save the game we love, but for encouraging civil dialogue (please repeat this three times).

My preference: let's do away with FF. It's a noble experiment, but in my view, a failed one. Experts are experts, and will do well no matter what noob weapons are used. And heli bullies will always be heli bullies.

But the FF feature is designed to punish noobs (or vets) who prefer tubes. And to squelch those like me who like mines, bettys, clays and traps. In short, it punishes the passive-aggressive sneak, who I think make the game more interesting. And more fun.

I have noticed something else during FF play: many players don't Press Q, or simply don't care, and trap-layers get TK'ed to death, sometimes because of inadvertent spawns. In addition, M79, RPG and XM users continue to use them anyway, so little is gained by trying to nudge such players to use bullets (I don't like tubes, for the record; I prefer the harder-to-use single shot).

Worse, game play has devolved, with more players camping and fewer players trying to get flags. It's as if no one cares about the original intent of BFV -- to help your team win. In short, score whores now dominate. The vocal minority has trumped Hello tradition.

Without the handicap allowed by tubes and other weapons, I believe that Battlefield Vietnam will ultimately deteriorate and many will leave. FF, I fear, isn't as fun. Others may agree as well. And it may be the slow death of us.

 

[SucceededKiller]

Sorry for the late reply.

Thank you for sharing your opinions too, hopefully we can get a few more of these because a simple "yes" or "no really doesn't give much information.

But the FF feature is designed to punish noobs (or vets) who prefer tubes. And to squelch those like me who like mines, bettys, clays and traps. In short, it punishes the passive-aggressive sneak, who I think make the game more interesting. And more fun.

I have noticed something else during FF play: many players don't Press Q, or simply don't care, and trap-layers get TK'ed to death, sometimes because of inadvertent spawns. In addition, M79, RPG and XM users continue to use them anyway, so little is gained by trying to nudge such players to use bullets (I don't like tubes, for the record; I prefer the harder-to-use single shot).

I wouldn't say it's designed to punish people, but more to promote a fairer version of gameplay and make it more realistic, at least in some cases. If someone is going to fire something like an M79 right below them, or drop a grenade under them, then they deserve to die from that too; I agree with you on the second part though.

Mines (land mines/betty bombs/claymores) are designed to be used to create chokepoints and defend tactical areas, but with FF enabled that becomes almost impossible. Teammates ignore that they are there and will drive/run over them despite the warnings, and in the long run make certain areas more vulnerable to enemy intrusion. There are, of course, exceptions to this like when players mine every exit or their own team's vehicles, as it just takes the vehicles/people out of action.

I don't believe the aim was to make more people use bullets, but to encourage them to be more conservative with their explosives around teammates and in CQB situations. After all, every weapon in BFV has its own, appropriate, use.

Friendly Fire trial stat facts

While Friendly fire was on we had 2960 teamkills.
During this time there were ~265 active players (Which seems off and may have been affected by the downtime) and we've had 1066 unique players.

We also go a lot more votes that before. The following people voted across the 2 trials:

Bullet Magnet
Whiterabbit
Berserker
Atomic ghille
Asker
the princess
zer0skill
blackhawkdown
lone wolf
aresty
sterbenjager
trailblazer
rage vs machine
mglcan
fear
«Nu(clear»Poopie
ricker
archie bunker
tresor
irishknuckles
pure capitalist
atomicpoopie
Jerome
jum_p
SucceededKiller
Gunner
Sgtsurfinbyrd
rbilly
Norbert
Mookli
pinky
sigworth
Maxwell Smart
Ford
anti-capitalist
yomama so fat
Miska
normaal
tazerman
tomahawk
frank
Hellsfury99
Ice_Skater17
Mav3rick
Hairball
MrOrange
GI 4ever
Sellout
Vmax
Capt. Canada
WO1. Hicks
theNME
Rastifar
Deltoya
thesurfinbyrd
::HiHiLo::
SirMossi
Hugh Jass
IVAN POKRYSHKIN
Turbo
The Nut Cracker
Micoplasma (URU)
AXL
free w/papua
-=M*A*S*H=-
*HDOW*RedHeeler
Mr.Beezly

Ending with 31 who said yes, they like it and 36 who said no, they don't like it from a total of 67 (which is almost twice as many as before!).

I'll keep the poll open in case more of you want to vote either way and share opinions though.

 

[Norbert]

So what kind of conclusion will we take of this vote ?

Will this voting have a follow for FF ?


Even i voted for no, so it could be invigorating for the server, if we enable FF for short periods again.