Something has to give...team switching cheats.

[TonyB]

Guys, you have to find a way to stop the continual team switching. I don't think I am the only player sick and damn tired of it. If it isn't Player switching from blue to red to find and blow the tunnel, then back to blue again, it's Nagi doing it. If it isn't Nagi it's Blueheeler. It's cheating.

Nagi and Player are regulars at switching teams when things aren't going their way. It causes players who have stuck it out through thick/thin in battle to be pushed to the other team. It's bullshit. Vmax just left the match we were in because of it.

If the game does it to even teams that's fine but give admins the discretion to determine if a player is switching to abuse the game. If they are, let the admin boot them from the game.

 

[TonyB]

Tell me how these guys have helped the server? By their mere presence? They drive off what few players we have. Lesuk, Vasok, Nagi, Player and now Blueheeler. They don't care about rules. They don't have any sense of fair play. They don't care if the server sits empty. For whatever reason, they just don't care. Just like that idiot you perma-banned. ABEL. It took way too long to get rid of him.

Wouldn't we be better off banning them permanently than to have the constant turmoil and upheaval? They do nothing to advance the game nor do they have any interest in playing fair. I'm like Vmax, sick of it. And at the rate they keep doing this shit, I may follow in the footsteps of Berserker.

 

[SucceededKiller]

Abel was banned for hacking, that's 1 thing that will get you a permanent ban with no chance of appealing it.

When we had a full server, no-one complained about switching, for some reason it's now a huge deal.

Personally, I'd rather find out what they are switching for and solve that, than start kicking them for switching, which will cause someone else to get switched anyway.
I know that not all the players who switch do so just to find a tunnel, but perhaps because they are fed up of getting raped on last flag, slaughtered on the bridge at reclaiming Hue or just have a team they prefer.

If I had the option, I would have locked teams long ago, unfortunately I don't. I also certainly wouldn't want to spend the time I have playing repeatedly watching whoever switches to find out why and if it was malicious or not. Whether they only just joined, whether someone quit or joined and that made them switch, if they are in an understandably not fun situation and just wanted a way out, perhaps they switched to even the odds or just hit the other team's flag by accident (I know I've done that a few times...) etc.

If we can find out why these people switch, I think solving that is the better option for us. If they do it to destroy team vehicles etc. though, that's breaking rules in itself so will be punished anyway. Take Nagi, Nagi seems to switch near the end when they say "gold", at least in my experience. It makes me wonder if Nagi thinks they need to be on the winning team to get the high score, not just having the highest score.

 

[michuneo]

a) there are some ppl (Hellsfury? No offence dude who will play on one side whatever they'll choose. We have to respect that if TB is not on

b) random people switching "just as they like" - you're not gonna do anything about it as they're random people Pinky, we tried getting in touch with Nagi but you know well how it ended up

c) people switching to be in a certain team deliberately - might have sense if we have similar amount of HELLO and GOTCHA players for example, makes game more fun; why not? (another reason why to leave TB off lol)

d) (honourable) people switching to the team which is loosing (there are quite a few players like that, I assure you guys), this is also their own free will.


Now (IMHO) we can start thinking how to implement TB (not possible) or try to make go along rule No.D as many players as possible. Both of those options are never-ending stories but the second one have any chances of succeeding if you ask me...

Grizz

 

[Hellsfury99]

a) there are some ppl (Hellsfury? No offence dude who will play on one side whatever they'll choose. We have to respect that if TB is not on

b) random people switching "just as they like" - you're not gonna do anything about it as they're random people Pinky, we tried getting in touch with Nagi but you know well how it ended up

c) people switching to be in a certain team deliberately - might have sense if we have similar amount of HELLO and GOTCHA players for example, makes game more fun; why not? (another reason why to leave TB off lol)

d) (honourable) people switching to the team which is loosing (there are quite a few players like that, I assure you guys), this is also their own free will.


Now (IMHO) we can start thinking how to implement TB (not possible) or try to make go along rule No.D as many players as possible. Both of those options are never-ending stories but the second one have any chances of succeeding if you ask me...

Grizz

Are you kidding me? That is not what he is talking about at all. Playing a side BEFORE the game begins has NOTHING to do with what he said. If anything I will switch to a losing side on a map or game worth saving.

What he saying is that people are switching teams and sabotaging maps and games and he is 100% correct.

What a weak ass argument dragging me in to this when it has nothing to do with the point he was making....no offence dude......

 

[peteware]

Sorry pinky I think I have said this a few times on here and in the game
I no longer let the game swop me
If I am swopped then I’ll just swop back hope that’s clear
And I’ll tell others to do the same
Irving last night was nva got to us main sporn down then 5 seconds later swopped to us
I am foooked if I am going to go blow my own sporn up after all the work
Funny thing game was 12/13 players
And started off 8/17 there is an easy fix PUT AUTO BALANCE ON FULL TIME
And if there’s any admins that have ever put swopping on to help their side then they are as bad as the cheaters they sometimes ban
A hack is something the other players don’t have and the ability to abuse a swop would then become a hack

 

[RoBoDuCk]

And if there’s any admins that have ever put swopping on to help their side then they are as bad as the cheaters they sometimes ban
A hack is something the other players don’t have and the ability to abuse a swop would then become a hack

Auto-balance is NOT something that we admins toggle V.

It would be different if it was only this once V. But I've been there when you've accused us of doing this many times in the past, and its categorically untrue.

In the past I've kept quiet when you've said this, but the wholesale Admin slander lately is rank.

When you uneducatedly conjecture these things publicly, it causes newcomers and other players to think badly of Admins from the get go. While all of us are just trying our best to keep hackers, and rule-breakers at bay so people like you can play without incident. No admin uses their privileges for personal reasons and those who have misbehaved while serving have met a quick end. But hey, lets heap more insult on those who volunteer to clean things up.... shameful

I'm not suggesting that Admins are above reproach, there is a very easy way to deal with any admins who might someday abuse their power. Make a report here: viewforum.php?f=296 if you have actual evidence of this. Its anonymous so the admin in question will have no idea you made the report. Reporting facts and evidence is a LOT better than publicly slandering admins based off nothing.

All I'm asking for is parity, we made a new rule that excessive public accusations of hacking was now illegal. Why? because it slandered the player in question without any evidence either for him or against him. I would think that doing the same thing to admins: falsely accusing them of abusing their privileges 24/7 should have the same end.

 

[peteware]

And if there’s any admins that have ever put swopping on to help their side then they are as bad as the cheaters they sometimes ban
A hack is something the other players don’t have and the ability to abuse a swop would then become a hack

Auto-balance is NOT something that we admins toggle V.

It would be different if it was only this once V. But I've been there when you've accused us of doing this many times in the past, and its categorically untrue.

In the past I've kept quiet when you've said this, but the wholesale Admin slander lately is rank.

When you uneducatedly conjecture these things publicly, it causes newcomers and other players to think badly of Admins from the get go. While all of us are just trying our best to keep hackers, and rule-breakers at bay so people like you can play without incident. No admin uses their privileges for personal reasons and those who have misbehaved while serving have met a quick end. But hey, lets heap more insult on those who volunteer to clean things up.... shameful

I'm not suggesting that Admins are above reproach, there is a very easy way to deal with any admins who might someday abuse their power. Make a report here: viewforum.php?f=296 if you have actual evidence of this. Its anonymous so the admin in question will have no idea you made the report. Reporting facts and evidence is a LOT better than publicly slandering admins based off nothing.

All I'm asking for is parity, we made a new rule that excessive public accusations of hacking was now illegal. Why? because it slandered the player in question without any evidence either for him or against him. I would think that doing the same thing to admins: falsely accusing them of abusing their privileges 24/7 should have the same end.

Hi thanks Duck for YOUR response
First what part of IF there’s any admins did you not understand
(Did YOU READ IT like there are admins doing it to you?)
Auto-balance is NOT something that we admins toggle V.
Strange think I had the power from day one (as an admin)
I may have been an admin on one of your first games
I stopped being an admin after being asked a few times by JESS
Got to love this one (When you uneducatedly conjecture)
I think playing from day one of BFV might have given me an education on this game
And admining it for 5 years and running my own server
But maybe you know better
Might just be me but I can smell someone that’s got hacks on long before any admins gone on spec to see them
When was the time I called someone a hacker?
If I see a player that’s got shit on I just keep playing and smile and kill the feckers more
Duck when you’re lying on your death bed many years from now I hope
YOU will look back and think it was only a GAME

 

[SucceededKiller]

This is how the setting for team balancing is set up:
http://i.imgur.com/b0VN5jT.jpg

It does not get changed, in fact, myself and Iceskater are the only 2 that can. And even if we did, it would not take effect until the server gets restarted. We can't just turn it on and off at will.

Here's how it works.

1. the server checks, approximately every 10 seconds, if the teams are equal. (Check the scoreboard numbers, not listed players. The numbers are correct, the list is only people that have loaded in, not connecting.)
2. If teams are unbalanced, it kicks in and waits for a person on the side with extra players to die. When they die, they get switched to the team with less players.
3. Once teams are fixed the balance gets turned off, as it's no longer needed.

You are probably referring to the "auto balance teams" option, rather than "smart team balance". The difference there is that "auto balance teams" wont tell players teams are unbalanced, it will just switch them. It also has no options to decide at what amount a team's excess players should be classed as unbalanced. (Although we always keep it at 2).

Now I can turn "auto balance teams" on instead of "smart team balance", but all that will change is you will never see the messages that say:

2016-11-23 20:23:29 : Smart-balance is enabled and teams are unbalanced, engaging auto-team-balance.
2016-11-23 20:23:59 : Smart-balance is enabled and teams are balanced, disengaging auto-team-balance.

Because that's all it changes. The only reason I use them is because the warning messages let players fix it themselves, if they wish to, or to realise that if they die they may end up on another team.

 

[Vmax]

Hi Guys

Just to reiterate what SK has said, Us ordinary admins do not have the ability in Remote manager to turn team balancing on and off as SK who is yours and my BFV leader has it turned on to auto start when the balance is out by more than 2 players and auto stop once the balance is restored. Nobody is manipulating the program for an advantage and if you got auto swapped its because 1 of your good gaming buddies has decided to swap 1st.

If SK stopped it coming on automatically then you wouldn't get swapped BUT some of those maps would be so out of balance that they would be unplayable.

Making team swapping against the rules may go some way toward solving the problem but would be impossible to enforce IMO.

For the record: I bought BFV in Adelaide in 2004 and was a member of ~RTFF~ clan in Australia where we owned our own server and played in the EA Ladder competition so have played the game as long as anyone here.

Regards
Rob/Vmax

 

[{AIR}Piet]

however...;
when possible... and there is a admin in de game..
plz... watch the players; "player and special NAGI "..
Nagi is add to the nva, when loading the map.
before the game started he will switch to usa, so when there not many players in de game, the game will start falch.
many time's he got by autobalance respawn at the nva, but will chaince that to usa.
because nobody can do something about that, more players will follow that example.
so it happends often that a map is starting by 8 nva and 12 usa.. and thats NOT good.
and thats verry irritating..... for a lot of players.
thats all what i want to say.

 

[Rambo FlamingDart]

Hi guys
Good we have started a topic about that. I appreciate the idea of finding out why these people switch.
But what I observed many times is that people only switch to be on the winning side and to attack by Huey/Mi-8. For expample when US only go main left on "Fall Of Lang Vei" and gets raped from air some players (previously on US-side) always join NVA just because they prefer also to use the Mi-8 and rape. This imbalances the teams again so former NVA players are now switched to US side by autobalance what is really exhausting.
I don't know what the best option is to avoid excessive team switching. Probably add a new rule that allows to punish if somebody is obviously changing team all the time just for selfish reason.

Greets

 

[RoBoDuCk]

Hi thanks Duck for YOUR response
First what part of IF there’s any admins did you not understand
(Did YOU READ IT like there are admins doing it to you?)
Auto-balance is NOT something that we admins toggle V.
Strange think I had the power from day one (as an admin)
I may have been an admin on one of your first games
I stopped being an admin after being asked a few times by JESS
Got to love this one (When you uneducatedly conjecture)
I think playing from day one of BFV might have given me an education on this game
And admining it for 5 years and running my own server
But maybe you know better
Might just be me but I can smell someone that’s got hacks on long before any admins gone on spec to see them
When was the time I called someone a hacker?
If I see a player that’s got shit on I just keep playing and smile and kill the feckers more
Duck when you’re lying on your death bed many years from now I hope
YOU will look back and think it was only a GAME

Sorry buddy, running your own server, playing this game allot, or even being an admin wayyyyy back in the day does not relate to how our server is SET UP TODAY. As SK mentioned, MOST (aka nearly all) of us admins do NOT have the ability to toggle Autobalance. Nor would we abuse it, upon having such an ability. I think it's you who did not read my post. I'm not merely bringing it up because you mentioned it this once. But for ALL the MYRIAD of times you accused admins of doing it INGAME. Feel free to go back and actually read what I said.

My point stands, it's insulting to infer admins use advantages against common players in an unfair way, as you have stated time and again ingame and now vaguely here.

I'm well aware that it's only a game V, however it becomes a less of a game when nuisances get on and start accusing admins of being useless/immoral with no proof. That's when the fun runs out and the "game" evaporates.

Its just part of the popular culture here it seems, admin's are supposed to log on, get trashed, and love the experience. Don't get me wrong, I love being an aid to the server, but I don't like the constant little jabs, from some of the server populace who conflate being an admin to something dirty. It gets tiring.

 

[TonyB]

Grizz, I am not talking about Hellsfury here. I have no problem with his being on the blue team at the start of maps. I don't care what guys do at the start, so long as the game can be even at the start. On La Drang, at the start, I will switch to blue because for the past 10 years, I have always started red for some reason and I'm sick and tired of that, not to mention that map. It needs jeeps.

I am talking about several issues:

1. Cambodian Incursion. Link to map: (http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/Cambodian_Incursion). 95% of the time I will switch to red because I enjoy moving and placing the tunnels. I think we all know that more players would rather be blue than red so they can toe shoot with XMs. There are two spawn tunnels on this map. I have watched both Player and Nagi switch teams to find the tunnel, pick it up, suicide and switch back to blue. I recently saw Nagi switch briefly to find the tunnel on his map then switch back to blue to go kill it (thus trying to avoid being caught blowing it as a teammate).

2. Operation Hastings. Link to map: (http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/Operation_Hastings). 99% of the time I stay with the team I start the game with because I enjoy playing both sides. When I spawn red, once again, I typically try to take the spawn and the mig to move the spawn to a location of my choice. I have seen Nagi switch teams to find and blow the tunnel.

3. Player switches randomly throughout the game. Again and again and again. I suspect, yes, suspect they do so to locate players who are killing them from unknown locations, such as snipers. They find them on the map then switch back to go kill them. Can I prove this, probably not without going into spectate and we all know it doesn't happen with such frequency that admins don't want to fool with watching and what good would it do me to post video of it when they would get what? A one day ban? Not worth the trouble.

4. Fall of Lang Vei. Link to map: (http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/Fall_of_Lang_Vei). I take what I get on this map and rarely switch. Even if on blue and taking a beating. Some players, Nagi we know, will switch when things are not going their way. And again, if the tunnel is in play, Nagi gains an advantage by switching.

She/He is not a team player. I realize that many of those who play are not team players and there's nothing going to be changed about that. But it is unfair for players to play a map on a team to advance their team to a win to be switched to the other side because Nagi doesn't like getting a beating. If blue loses their main on Hastings, after Nagi has raped the piss out of players using a gunship, he just switches teams so he can then get an MI8 to rape with.

SK you are right, when the server was full of players, nobody complains about the switchers. When the server is full, however, we usually have very competitive games. When games are competitive and their are many players, my taking blue main on a Hastings is a miracle. When there are say 14 players on, taking main is easier and thus leads to Nagi switching to red driving the teams out of balance.

I say give the admins the discretion to determine, as best they can, when players are engaging in such behavior to boot them. I don't care if doing so drives the game out of balance. I would rather be switched because action is taken against these non-players than to be forced into a switch because Nagi or Player on a whim want to switch or to do so in order to cheat.

 

[Rambo FlamingDart]

What you describe pinky is exactely what I observed many times.
It definitely kills a game if players behave so selfish.

 

[SucceededKiller]

1. Cambodian Incursion. Link to map: (http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/Cambodian_Incursion). 95% of the time I will switch to red because I enjoy moving and placing the tunnels. I think we all know that more players would rather be blue than red so they can toe shoot with XMs. There are two spawn tunnels on this map. I have watched both Player and Nagi switch teams to find the tunnel, pick it up, suicide and switch back to blue. I recently saw Nagi switch briefly to find the tunnel on his map then switch back to blue to go kill it (thus trying to avoid being caught blowing it as a teammate)


2. Operation Hastings. Link to map: (http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/Operation_Hastings). 99% of the time I stay with the team I start the game with because I enjoy playing both sides. When I spawn red, once again, I typically try to take the spawn and the mig to move the spawn to a location of my choice. I have seen Nagi switch teams to find and blow the tunnel.

Which is disruptive play, and they can be reported for it.

3. Player switches randomly throughout the game. Again and again and again. I suspect, yes, suspect they do so to locate players who are killing them from unknown locations, such as snipers. They find them on the map then switch back to go kill them. Can I prove this, probably not without going into spectate and we all know it doesn't happen with such frequency that admins don't want to fool with watching and what good would it do me to post video of it when they would get what? A one day ban? Not worth the trouble.

I've talked to player about why they switch, I've just messaged Nagi. Finding out why they switch, and trying to solve that, seems like a more ideal solution given our situation.

4. Fall of Lang Vei. Link to map: (http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/Fall_of_Lang_Vei). I take what I get on this map and rarely switch. Even if on blue and taking a beating. Some players, Nagi we know, will switch when things are not going their way. And again, if the tunnel is in play, Nagi gains an advantage by switching.

She/He is not a team player. I realize that many of those who play are not team players and there's nothing going to be changed about that. But it is unfair for players to play a map on a team to advance their team to a win to be switched to the other side because Nagi doesn't like getting a beating. If blue loses their main on Hastings, after Nagi has raped the piss out of players using a gunship, he just switches teams so he can then get an MI8 to rape with.

I've messaged Nagi to try and find out why they switch. I've seen them get slaughtered repeatedly and not switch, so that's not always the case. Hopefully once we find out the reasons for the switching we can put an end to it.

SK you are right, when the server was full of players, nobody complains about the switchers. When the server is full, however, we usually have very competitive games. When games are competitive and their are many players, my taking blue main on a Hastings is a miracle. When there are say 14 players on, taking main is easier and thus leads to Nagi switching to red driving the teams out of balance.

But no-one is complaining about the balance, 1 person rarely makes much of an impact and the only people that unbalance by more than 1 are those that switch right at the start when the server has already assigned equal teams, as any other time the server will be switching the first to die. People are complaining about the switching itself, not what it does. It's never "I got switched now teams are unfair" but just "I got switched".

I say give the admins the discretion to determine, as best they can, when players are engaging in such behavior to boot them. I don't care if doing so drives the game out of balance. I would rather be switched because action is taken against these non-players than to be forced into a switch because Nagi or Player on a whim want to switch or to do so in order to cheat.

What behaviour? Unbalancing teams? In that case we enforce it in all situations. Start of game, mid-game and end-game, no exceptions. Because otherwise no admin is going to spend their time watching people switch, asking them why in case they felt the teams were unfair/checking if teams seem fair. Checking if someone left/joined and that caused them to switch etc. There are so many situations which can cause unfair teams it would be impossible to ask the admins to accurately monitor switching along with all the other rules. It seems more like you want to target a specific couple of players though than the issue as a whole.

Another option I can give you is changing the balance amount. Players can balance teams themselves and we can see how that works out, so even if 1 person switches, no-one else will unless the team is unbalanced by 3 extra players, rather than 2. That way if players are really concerned about having a fair game, then can keep teams balanced themselves. That would work even better than auto-balance, as an appropriately skilled player will get moved instead of just the first to die.

 

[{AIR}Piet]

.

 

[{AIR}Piet]

Long stories...
But missing the point....
TS? Intentional ?= kick.
Because there is now NO punishment it will go on AND other player are following this shit play.
AND some players are or leaving the game or go in spectator..mode....
So plz. Make a statemant... intentional teamswitch... = kick.

 

[SucceededKiller]

Switching at the start is intentional.
Switching to make teams more balanced is intentional.
Switching to spectator which can also mess with teams is intentional.

Just forbidding switching outright is not going to work.

Also, ~8 people have replied here, and not all expressing their agreement. That's not even close to anywhere near a majority of our players.

 

[Capt. Canada]

Good evening gentlemen.
or morning, or afternoon, middle of the night, whatever, adjust the greeting as appropriate.

Been following this discourse for a few days, told my dog about it. He seemed confused.

There's not much to be done about team switching. I did it frequently to be opposite of Hellsfury just because it was always fun playing against him; sounds a bit macabre to enjoy dying so much, but I got him once or twice, and a 1:4 KDR against him was a win for Team Canada.

It appears to be down primarily to two players:
Player team switching causes a problem because it pushes another player to the opposite team, and that can cause problems, and players have complained about it.
Nagi's switching sometimes seems more malicious. I've seen him pick up tunnel, swim to middle of a river, and then suicide so no one else can retrieve tunnel.

I think Pinky's original point was that a frequent pattern of switching can be disruptive, and he wants the admins to be proactive in regards to these specific players for this reason. However, that's profiling. No one should be profiled just for the way they play.

Yeah, it's funny because it came from me.

SK is right. He needs to solve the problem from the ground level instead of banning people.

Still, not my circus, not my monkeys, so take it for what it's worth.