Can we remove the mods on Operation Irving and Ia Drang Valley and change the order of the maps?

[Paul Walker]

I'd first like to elaborate on the mods implemented on the two aforementioned maps:
Both maps functioned properly on their own and the added mods simply did not improve the gaming experience. Operation Irving has always been a fan favourite for a reason: nice balance of USA attack and NVA defense power plus plenty of possibilities for fun infantry gameplay. WIth the mods, however, NVA is usually overpowered due to the KA-25, two MIGs, several ZSUs, SA7s and a MI-8 plus a MI spawn heli, while the USA has basically no changes added to its army. The map also became too helicopter and jet-heavy as infantry gameplay is much more difficult due to the sheer amount of vehicles that can attack from the air.

Regarding Landing Zone Albany, the map has also become almost unenjoyable as infanry due to the helicopters paired with the large open space. The clothes of the players do not provide enough camouflage to blend into the surrounding area, and thus they become an easy target for anything airborne. It provides a really poor gaming experience, no matter what side one decides to play on.

Secondly, I'd like to ask the team to change the order of the maps. Due to the short timeframe when people from all over the world can come together and paly during the weekend, we always end up playing the same maps. It has gotten to the point where one can guess with a high level of accuracy what map is currently being played on, just by looking at the clock. This leaves at least half the available maps almost completely unplayed. Operation Cedar Falls is something we have not played on in a long time, for example.
If we could mix it up, or create a shuffle system where the automod randomly decides what map to play next, that would be much better.

Hope you can consider the above and looking forward to more BFV wars!

 

[x4|Al Gore]

Today, about 10–12 of us were playing across several different maps, and the player count remained steady throughout. However, as soon as the heavily modded Irving map loaded, roughly half the players left. A few minutes later, I checked the server again, and it had dropped to 0 players.

This isn't an isolated incident. I've noticed the same pattern repeatedly: whenever the modded Irving map comes up, players leave, and the server quickly dies—even on weekends when player activity is usually at its highest.

The original vote was to keep all of the modded maps, but I believe Irving deserves to be evaluated on its own merits. If there were a separate vote specifically on the modded Irving map—and if the regular players who are consistently on the server during the week and on weekends participated—I believe the majority would vote to restore the original Irving map.

As recently as last year, the original Irving regularly attracted 20+ players. It was one of the server's strongest maps, and there didn't appear to be a need to overhaul it.

To be clear, I'm happy with the changes made to La Drang, and I'm also fine with the modifications to Saigon 1968. My concern is specifically with Irving. The consistent drop in player numbers whenever the modded version loads is hard to ignore. If the data repeatedly shows that players leave and the server empties when this map appears, then it's worth taking that feedback seriously.

I hope the leadership will review the server statistics and player trends objectively to determine whether the modded Irving map is benefiting the server or hurting player retention. If the data supports bringing back the original version, I hope that option is given fair consideration.

Thanks for taking the time to consider this.

 

[Blue shark]

This example seems to possibly indicate a case of correlation rather than Irving itself causing any player drop on its own as it is not unusual that people leave at a certain time of the night, regardless of which map is being played at the time.

During peak times the modded Irving has a very steady player count, particularly when compared against the unmodded version under similar conditions in times past, which frequently saw some players leaving due to being frustrated about not being able to fight back against the overwhelming air power of the US team.

At the same time it is worth to acknowledge that there are quite a few people that consider the original map iconic in its own right which is the reason it was made available again on one of the most active days of the weekend.

With this latest change, we will be able to compare them side by side on successive Saturdays and Sundays and after watching the numbers long term we may be able to draw some new conclusions about their respective popularity and player retention and respond accordingly

 

[x4|Al Gore]

This example seems to possibly indicate a case of correlation rather than Irving itself causing any player drop on its own as it is not unusual that people leave at a certain time of the night, regardless of which map is being played at the time.

During peak times the modded Irving has a very steady player count, particularly when compared against the unmodded version under similar conditions in times past, which frequently saw some players leaving due to being frustrated about not being able to fight back against the overwhelming air power of the US team.

At the same time it is worth to acknowledge that there are quite a few people that consider the original map iconic in its own right which is the reason it was made available again on one of the most active days of the weekend.

With this latest change, we will be able to compare them side by side on successive Saturdays and Sundays and after watching the numbers long term we may be able to draw some new conclusions about their respective popularity and player retention and respond accordingly

The NVA in the original Irving was fully capable of countering the US's overwhelming air superiority through a combination of effective tactics and teamwork:

• Tunnel networks allowed the NVA to launch surprise attacks into the US main base, occasionally capturing US aircraft. Players such as @Son demonstrated how devastating these tunnels could be. They were also highly effective for recapturing lost NVA flags.
• ZSU anti-aircraft vehicles were used exceptionally well by players like Jum_P to deny US aircraft access to key objectives and keep constant pressure on enemy air support.
• SA-7 surface-to-air missiles were employed effectively across the NVA team, forcing US pilots to stay cautious and often preventing or defeating air attacks altogether.

This Jan 11 2026 video, recorded shortly before the map was modified, clearly shows the NVA winning on the original version without any of the later changes:


View: https://youtu.be/EeI8_vpWxEs?si=aPrb0I33JFpBNHP8

The accompanying playlist further demonstrates that the NVA regularly won well over 50% of matches by making effective use of these defensive tools. The original Irving was an excellent example of balanced map design, where victory ultimately depended on player skill, coordination, and teamwork rather than forced balance changes.

Pre-Modded Irving Video Playlist

I hope you'll reconsider continuing to push this modification despite the widespread feedback from players who preferred the original version. Rather than dismissing those concerns, it would be worthwhile to recognize that the map already offered balanced and engaging gameplay when played as intended.

 

[Blue shark]

As it stands, past data has shown that player retention has been worse on the original Irving, and all modded maps including Irving were approved by popular vote, in concordande with this we cannot simply remove the modded map based on anecdotal evidence and a handful of players voicing their complaints about the map out of several dozen active players.

However, taking into account possible changes and better reflect the current reality, I will propose the following.

Since both modded and original maps are now being played side by side on Saturdays and Sundays respectively, it will be possible to gather new data about which of them better retains players or in short, is more popular and conductive to server health. This can be done in a very precise way by examining the event logs for both modded and original Irving on the weekends and to some extent watching the live statistics on server trackers such as GS4U. This will then give us a clear picture of the current situation in regards to players numbers and retention. All I am asking for is a little patience until there is enough data, which will take several weekends at least

 

[TKO_Flight447]

New Irving sucks. So many people have now told you guys that, including your own admins.

Stop trying to be a bean counter and over analyze statistics on a 20 year old game. People leave when the map comes on, including myself and Toxic, who usually goes AFK. Other players see that, and then leave or go AFK. Even Gore is saying half the players left when he joined.

Modded maps like Irving are goofy. People come here to play Vanilla original maps. At first there might be some excitement to try out a new modded map, but months later, its boring, just another air rape fest and people want the old original map back. You guys are killing this game by overthinking it. Put back the original maps and people will come.

 

[Blue shark]

I am sorry you feel this way, but objectively looking at the data or "bean counting" as you call it is exactly the right approach to reach an objective conclusion and avoid changing things back and forth on a whim without careful consideration.

We've also had a technical problem due to the new switching back and forth between modded and normal Irving (admittedly in part based on a technical miscalculation on my part) which led to some people not being able to join on Irving yesterday. This is currently being addressed and shouldn't be an issue in the future

 

[TKO_Flight447]

I am sorry you feel this way, but objectively looking at the data or "bean counting" as you call it is exactly the right approach to reach an objective conclusion and avoid changing things back and forth on a whim without careful consideration.

We've also had a technical problem due to the new switching back and forth between modded and normal Irving (admittedly in part based on a technical miscalculation on my part) which led to some people not being able to join on Irving yesterday. This is currently being addressed and shouldn't be an issue in the future

No its not. its a 22 year old game with a very small base of loyal gamers. its not some statistical object that needs to be analyzed. people want to play the original maps on Hello. Those that don't, can play on EPD. There are enough air maps in the vanilla maps already, Irving doesn't need air, nor do the other maps. This is the only place to play BFV anymore with original maps, so now that Hello Allmaps is taking away and modding the original maps, whats the point?

Put the original maps back.

 

[x4|Al Gore]

New Irving sucks. So many people have now told you guys that, including your own admins.

Stop trying to be a bean counter and over analyze statistics on a 20 year old game. People leave when the map comes on, including myself and Toxic, who usually goes AFK. Other players see that, and then leave or go AFK. Even Gore is saying half the players left when he joined.

Modded maps like Irving are goofy. People come here to play Vanilla original maps. At first there might be some excitement to try out a new modded map, but months later, its boring, just another air rape fest and people want the old original map back. You guys are killing this game by overthinking it. Put back the original maps and people will come.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually agree with you.

Hello BFV built its reputation on original maps, while communities focused on modded maps—like TKO—eventually disappeared. Phal is a good admin who earned his position quickly, just like RusWarrior, you, and DiscoMagpie. I've even praised his work on the modded La Drang Valley.

That said, not every map needs to be reinvented. Original Saigon-1968 and Irving were already among the most popular maps, so I never saw the need to modify them. At least players don't leave when modded Saigon-1968 comes up.

The real issue is the constant push for the modded Irving map. Since February, players have consistently left when it appears, yet that feedback keeps getting dismissed, almost like an AI customer service bot repeating the same scripted response instead of listening.

During IceSkater's time, there was an unwritten rule that the main Hello BFV server stayed focused on original maps, while modded maps belonged on separate servers, like Pipiska's. Aside from adding two NVA jeeps to La Drang during COVID for balance, the originals were largely left alone—and that worked.

I'm really starting to miss @IceSkater

 

[x4|Al Gore]

approved by popular vote

Using forum votes as proof is a weak argument because the players who are actually playing—and leaving when the modded Irving map comes up—aren't the ones participating in those polls.

I'm sure you're aware that most newer players rarely, if ever, visit these forums, so any vote here isn't representative of the current player base. Years ago, the forums were the community hub, and most regulars checked in frequently. Today, that's no longer the case. For many players, especially newer ones, the forums have become little more than a support page. Most only come here when their game isn't working, they encounter an error, or they need to download the mod files for an event.

Because of that, forum polls don't accurately reflect the opinions of the players who are actively filling the server every day. If you want to know what the player base actually thinks, the best indicator is their behavior in-game—and right now, that behavior is players consistently leaving when the modded Irving map comes up.

 

[x4|Al Gore]

based on anecdotal evidence

The last recorded gameplay video of the original Irving map from January, just before your personally modified version was introduced, is not anecdotal evidence—it's direct evidence. It clearly shows a large number of consistent player numbers and the NVA team winning the match, which undermines the claim that the map needed to be modified to counter overwhelming U.S. air power. If the NVA could already win on the original map, then the argument that the modification was necessary isn't supported by the evidence.

 

[HeiligWahrheit]

I'm not going to leave @Blue shark alone with this: As she said, we identified Irving as a map, where players left (like Ia Drang) - espacially, when there were not many players online. To be transparent, we issued a poll, where everyone could voice their opinion. Some might say, it's not representive - if it's not, then we still have the impression, that the vanilla maps are "killer-maps". Thanks also for @TKO_Flight447 for your vote then - why did your opinion change? If there would be feedback to the mods themself, we could start adjusting the mods. But your feedback some messages ago

people want to play the original maps on Hello. Those that don't, can play on EPD. There are enough air maps in the vanilla maps already, Irving doesn't need air, nor do the other maps.

sounds like you're not happy with mods in general. I do not understand, what you guys think: That we introduce mods because it's fun? No. We do it because we think it's the best to keep players on the server.

I'm really starting to miss @IceSkater

Sidenote: IceSkater did all he could for this community. Like we try to do knowing we can never reach his level like noone could in this community. You know why he left? One of the reason was, that he could not enjoy the game anymore. He was attacked personally to be ignorant, arrogant and other stuff despite all his freetime he spent. Reading through the ingame-chat (also today) reminds me of that.

We agreed to remove the mod on sundays. And are going to reconsider the mods knowing, that we have "killer-maps" in the rotation, which can be good maps with some modding.