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TonyB

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Why do you guys ask for opinions then you LOCK the threads??? I don't get it. We are having a discussion about a topic of interest where I have provided my opinion. Players login and post their comments then the next thing I know, a head-honcho posts then LOCKS the thread. Why?

Let guys voice their opinions. I get it that you don't like it and you think you are being criticized. That goes with the territory. If you are going to allow players to express their opinion and you don't like it, deal with it. I take my share of shit over many things and have done so most of my career.

My advice to those of you who lock these threads, don't ever run for office. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
 

HoloDuke

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Hi Pinky,

The Pinky I know and love is the happy go lucky, skilled, and funny one who is always up to some hilarious hijinx in game. Don't let other players bring you down.

I think there are two issues. The first one is team switching to locate players and tunnels. This is a warnable / bannable offense. The best way to handle it would be to report it when you notice it. Admins may also have to report it so it can be reviewed via log, if we didn't actually observe the infraction - I think Vmax described the overall process in a prior reply. So I think this is covered.

The second issue is excessive team switchers. This falls into a separate category and maybe it is what SK and Ice are discussing. So maybe more patience on this one but nevertheless, please don't let other players inconsiderate play get you down. It may be annoying and disruptive but I don't think it is cheating and is difficult to monitor and enforce.

On a side note, I think any work on the server that any of us sees is just a tiny tip of the iceberg. SK and others (Ice, SK's contacts, etc) has/have spent a lot of time and dealing with Hash. SK monitors the server almost all of the time. We may not see him in game but he's working all the time to make this server run smoothly for us - and as you can see from prior discussions on team switching, etc - he and Ice are committed to listening to players and are willing to do extra work to improve the server experience.
 
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TonyB

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I'm surprised you didn't lock this thread.

By the way, I changed the poll for a laugh. An antic. I'm sorry that your sense of humor must also have been lost. Everybody who participated knew that. Interestingly, you and your buddy banned me from the forums for far longer than asshole Nagi, Vasok or Lesuk have ever been banned for repeated violations of the game rules.

I've said it many times, I appreciate what the admins do and have to do here. Nothing I am saying or have said should be taken as any kind of slam to admins so please don't try and cast my comments in such a light.

The game has changed. What we are playing today is vastly different than what it was like years ago. Years before you and SK came along. I ran a server. I had 40 plus guys contributing money almost monthly to help foot the bill. Why? Because they knew that the admins I had helping had a lick of sense and the power to handle issues. We don't have that here. The rules on rules have done nothing to improve play.

There was nothing stagnant about the thread so please stop locking my posts. It has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with players sharing ideas and opinions as to how to improve the game and keep players playing.

See you in game

Please stop raping main.
 
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TonyB

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SellOut said:
On a side note, I think any work on the server that any of us sees is just a tiny tip of the iceberg. SK and others (Ice, SK's contacts, etc) has/have spent a lot of time and dealing with Hash. SK monitors the server almost all of the time. We may not see him in game but he's working all the time to make this server run smoothly for us - and as you can see from prior discussions on team switching, etc - he and Ice are committed to listening to players and are willing to do extra work to improve the server experience.

I know. I've never said these guys are not working hard to keep the game going. I appreciate all that they do. I just wish they would let the admins admin the server.

Look, I don't know that I have ever seen you move the tunnels. There are very few of us who do. I do my best to play as a team player. I pick guys up in choppers. I stop my jeep to pick guys up. The game has changed. It's every man for himself but as Orange says, if he gets in the chopper, he is going down with the ship. That's me too. I will play the game as a team. When I place the tunnel, I don't want effing Nagi or Player to switch teams to find the tunnel and blow it then switch back. You, and I imagine most of the other admins I know, will never see this. Why? Because you guys don't move the tunnel.

This isn't a criticism of your play. There are no rules that say you have to use a certain kit. There are no rules that say players cannot switch teams ad nauseam. And that is what they do. I'm not trying to ad to the burdens of admins. I quit being one because I didn't like having my hands tied behind my back, ever fearful that I would do something wrong and lose what I call privileges. I was afraid I would whack Nagi, Lesuk or Vasok for the things they do and then I would be whacked because, as we know, these three wear teflon plated body armor at HELLO BFV.

See you in game,

Please don't rape main.
 

HoloDuke

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pinky said:
Look, I don't know that I have ever seen you move the tunnels. There are very few of us who do. I do my best to play as a team player. I pick guys up in choppers. I stop my jeep to pick guys up. The game has changed. It's every man for himself but as Orange says, if he gets in the chopper, he is going down with the ship. That's me too. I will play the game as a team. When I place the tunnel, I don't want effing Nagi or Player to switch teams to find the tunnel and blow it then switch back. You, and I imagine most of the other admins I know, will never see this. Why? Because you guys don't move the tunnel.

On the contrary, my 2nd favorite kit is the engineer. I move the tunnels quite a bit - just not to enemy main. SK and Ice have offered you a method to penalize anyone who team switches to destroy tunnels or steal aircraft - so why keep dwelling on this issue. You are just bumming yourself out.

pinky said:
I quit being one because I didn't like having my hands tied behind my back, ever fearful that I would do something wrong and lose what I call privileges. I was afraid I would whack Nagi, Lesuk or Vasok for the things they do and then I would be whacked because, as we know, these three wear teflon plated body armor at HELLO BFV.

Allowing admins to "whack" players based on their discretion will create the very environment you describe - living in fear. Pinky you of all people know how things work here as an admin. Everything is transparent and open to discussion. There are well thought out and well defined guidelines to ensure that everyone is treated fairly and not based on knee jerk or heat of the moment decisions. I have repeatedly suggested that you make constructive proposals to address penalties on cumulative infractions that are not affected by time cool downs. But you seem to ignore that and instead prefer to keep complaining.

Also for the record, I was also offended by the Vote edit - I just didn't say anything when I noticed it. You changed my vote to misrepresent my sentiments.
 
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TonyB

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SellOut said:
...so why keep dwelling on this issue. You are just bumming yourself out.

Allowing admins to "whack" players based on their discretion will create the very environment you describe - living in fear. Pinky you of all people know how things work here as an admin. Everything is transparent and open to discussion. There are well thought out and well defined guidelines to ensure that everyone is treated fairly and not based on knee jerk or heat of the moment decisions. I have repeatedly suggested that you make constructive proposals to address penalties on cumulative infractions that are not affected by time cool downs. But you seem to ignore that and instead prefer to keep complaining.

Also for the record, I was also offended by the Vote edit - I just didn't say anything when I noticed it. You changed my vote to misrepresent my sentiments.

I will address your last comment first. You need thicker skin my friend. It was done as a joke. I thought it funny but now realize there are feelings involved. I might also point out that since the vote was anonymous, nobody would know how any particular person voted so how would anyone know that your sentiments were misrepresented?

My opinion on that fiasco was that I was given a multi-day ban on the forums. That's sufficient proof to me of how out-of-touch I must be with this whole HELLO outfit. Lesuk - Nagi - Vasok are repeat rape offenders. I don't know that any of them have ever had more than a 24 hour ban for their deeds which are in-game and much more egregious than the stunt I pulled in the forums.

Cool it with stroking SK and Shaun. They are big boys I am sure.

My comments are my opinions. The forum has a place to post your opinions and that's what I have done. If they don't want to hear the opinions of players here, then take down the thread. They may as well since when a discussion is taking place they LOCK the thread. Either let players post or take down the option to express your opinion.

Why not allow free and open discussion of the issues? Any why attack me? Why not have a discussion of the problems of the game and see if there can be a resolution. I'm sick and tired of posting my opinion only to have it termed a "complaint" or pinky "complaining" again. Why would anyone want to come here and bother to post anything. Much like reports of players raping etc., such as I have done over and over to only see what? We all know.

You want me to post links to my suggestions? I've tried posting suggestions. We all know how that has gone.

I just want the admins to have the power to whack, and I don't give a shit what word any of you want to assign to it, "boot" "kick" players from the server when the violate the rules. Go look at the video I posted of Nagi killing me in main at the start of Con Thien. He lands the Cobra in our main in an effort to steal a chopper. Look at my mini-map, we have all four of our flags. He kills me with the Cobra. Clear as the back of your hand. What's been done to him? Nothing. Why? Because Sk or Shaun have determined that he didn't receive a main rape warning. Yes, Nagi needs a warning. Nagi has no idea that he can't come to main and rape us. He needs a warning. lol - seriously, you can't make this stuff up.

Silly if not incredible.
 

HoloDuke

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Pinky,

I apologize for this statement - it was unnecessary, not nice, and not a fair thing to say.

SellOut said:
But you seem to ignore that and instead prefer to keep complaining.
 

RoBoDuCk

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I'm gonna skirt over some of this, as I have conflicting interests here. Pinky is my longest friend on BFV and I have grown extremely fond of SK, Shaun and Sellout as well. So there is no "winning" in this environment, and none of these battles are worth losing a friendship over. I just want that to be crystal clear.

Just to lay it out devoid of emotions, we have 2 problems here.

1. Pinky and others feel like there are members of our community that "get away" with far too much. We know who they are but lets leave them un-named. I would say there are as few as 5 and as many as 10 of these players. People who know the limits of our rules and the habits of our admins. People who know that one or two illegal potshots will be overlooked. Common sense dictates they no longer need a warning as they have been here for 5years+ and KNOW OUR SERVER RULES.

2. SK and Shaun are well aware of the issues, and are taking a good look at this. Keeping in mind that Hash and Server populations are ALWAYS going to take a front seat to any secondary issues such as mainrape. And because of this, they are requesting to not always be POUNDED with demands that the server rules change NOW! Its not as if they are invalidating your argument Pinky, but they are not ready to provide you with an immediate answer/solution. And even if they did, you have to come to the realization that the answer may still be no. And apart from that, they have ALREADY acted as recently as a week or two ago by cutting down the number of warnings needed. So you cannot say they are not giving you a fair shake.


I have said this before and I will say it again. You CANNOT get what you want by threatening to stop filming or throwing away your admin privileges, or worse yet saying that if you had remained an admin you would have gone against the rules and perma-banned some of these fools. As much as I AGREE with your stance on these repeat offenders and what should be done with them. You CANNOT expect SK and Shaun to JUMP every time you say FROG. Have patience, carry yourself in a calm manner. Continue to videotape infractions and continue to let your feelings be known in a constructive and non-nagging manner. Otherwise no one will take you credibly.... Like you I have also been wanting a harsher punishment for these annoying individuals, but I'm not willing to lose cool over it. Do I hope things change in this regard? Yes, but you know what scares me more? Hash and the declining server populace. I HATE to imagine that I may wake up one day and my beloved BFV is gone forever....and lets face it, at that point we would be BEGGING for 12 Nagi's just so we could play a round!
 
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TonyB

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Thank you Robo for your kind remarks and reasoned opinions. They are appreciated as are you.

I have said it a hundred times if I have said it once. I fully support the admins. Hell, I'm friends with them! I've known NME for years via BFV. Met Vmax and Robo along the way. Shaun has stopped coming on Teamspeak and I have no idea why. And, by the way, I haven't heard from or seen Radagast in over a month.

Getting to know these admins is a key to the success of the game. Knowing them as I do, and I would think as the head-honchos do, I would not hesitate to entrust in them, in their sole discretion, to handle issues on the server. That's my beef here. Give these admins the authority and power to do their job! And stop pandering to the nitwits who screw up the game for those of us who play it. Once they figure out that the admins have the support of the head-honchos, perhaps they will stop the bullshit that drives off players. When they come complain, the response should be simple, don't do what you did and you won't have anything to complain about!

See you in the game,

pinky
 

SucceededKiller

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Ice was not wrong to lock the threads, they start alright but devolve into ways to punish specific players more than anyone else. How would you feel if you were targeted because of the way you choose to play? Yes, some players break rules more than others, usually those with a lesser grasp of the English language than the rest of us, but that doesn't mean we just target them. All of your posts have been about doing exactly that, targeting a player; Nagi, lesuk, vasok.

You're right, we had ~38 people on, the most I've seen in the past few months. 38 people with our current rules, rules we try not to change too much. You are making huge assumptions though when it comes to people switching just to learn tunnel locations. I've switched teams manually before, sometimes by accidently hitting the other flag, sometimes because the other team is getting slaughtered, although not often as I leave the server to do its thing and depending on the map, me changing isn't going to have much impact. I couldn't tell you where the tunnel was any time I did it, and a lot of the time they don't get moved anyway. The more you post about it, the more it seems like you want to protect your own style of play (moving tunnels), which is fine, but not at the expense of others. The same goes for enforcing the rules; we do it fairly for everyone, we don't decide x player is more deserving of punishment and slap a higher ban time on them as a result. The base issue you seem to have is with the reporting system though, that's something I can fix, or try to. I've already said evidence is not required for most reports, although it is preferred, and that should help once more players catch on.

mRoRange is right, we can add rule after rule and all it will do is penalise legitimate players more as those that want to break them will find a way and everyone else will accidently fall victim.

I get that you want to give admins the ability to decide punishment, but deliberate or not there will be a bias. Because it's their friend, because they are talking to the person on TeamSpeak and know it was an accident, because they don't like that specific type of gameplay much and what to put an end to it. etc. etc. By having a fixed system in place, none of that is possible. Players don't have to worry about being treated differently or targeted and admins don't have to worry about falling victim to any bias they may have or treating people unfairly. If an admin is having a bad day, they get annoyed and decide the next time something happens they are going to make sure the punishment is longer, then they do it and it really wasn't fair because x players prior only got a warning for the same thing, so the admin is now at fault; that wont help us. Having a set course of action, a system for dealing with trouble makers, is the best thing for all of us.

I know I've felt that way in instances where people complain about an issue that doesn't exist. When players claim an admin killed them for their benefit, made them get switched and so on, it annoys me a lot because it's just not true, and no matter how much reasoning you do they wont believe you. I could tell someone 1000 times it's a bug in the game that they died, they'll still blame the admin, and it might not break any rules, but if I knew I could get rid of them just because...then I'm not going to say I would, but the thought would be there. I'm not concerned about the admins deliberately breaking rules, I think I've only had 2 instances of that in my entire time here, my concern is them unintentionally doing it.

If people are switching teams just to find the tunnel, destroy the tunnel, find a player location, steal an aircraft etc. then that's disruptive gameplay. There's nothing fair about it and it should be stopped.

My issue is twofold.

1. I don't want to drive off what's left of the player base with more and more rules and longer and longer bantimes. Or by targeting specific players moreso than others. We already deal with a child like Hash, we don't need to make it any more difficult for people to play.
2. I don't want to make admins obsolete by making reporting players significantly better at getting troublemakers dealt with than when an admin is in-game.

So here's what I've come up with with Ice.

1. Rulebreaking where a warning can not be given before the damage is done no longer needs warnings, but we reduce the ban time. This includes destroying the tunnel when you are NVA, switching to find the tunnel and destroy it, destroying friendly vehicles , taking a vehicle to give to the opposing team, switching team to find the location of an enemy player etc. The bantime for each instance when a player is reported is 2 hours. (Yes, it's not much, bear with me here)

2. Warnings are no longer required for any rule if a player has received a ban in the last 14 days. (Subject to change, lets see how this goes). This way those the break the rules will find they are easier to ban, without anyone being targeted. As soon as the player's first ban has been given, the ban times go back to normal for that period. They destroy a tunnel in this period, it's not 2 hours, like above, but 24 hours + 1 hour per destroyed tunnel in line with our player reports system. The same for all the other rules. As soon as they have this first ban, there are no warnings needed for that 14 day period.

I hope this helps somewhat. It makes reporting players easier if the player has done it before, but it ensures that any player that gets reported is dealt with in the same manner.
 

hard_rice

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Re: I took out my stir stick

I do not understand how one can believe in in free speech which is essentially freedom of expression and simultaneously feel that controlling freedom expression by locking a topic is acceptable.

As long as no personal insults or attacks are flying around I would describe threads as a discussion between a group of people. Participating in the discussion of a thread is not compulsory. Should one loose interest in a thread or no longer think any relevant substance can be gleaned then simply quit participating in the thread.

Stopping any discussion that does not involve hate, intimidation, or some similar behavior is censorship.

Perhaps there are some rules in the forums that I am unaware of.

I do think that good comes from open communication and should be supported where ever possible in the free world by all people of good conscience.

Sometimes people need to vent / rant and as long as there are no fallacies or hurtful things written, why lock a discussion other than to go on a power trip? And yes there times when it is appropriate to lock a topic.

Ice I agree changing the poll was at best in bad taste.
 
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TonyB

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SucceededKiller said:
All of your posts have been about doing exactly that, targeting a player; Nagi, lesuk, vasok.

Uhhh, they happen to be the blatant and repeat offenders on the server.


SucceededKiller said:
You are making huge assumptions though when it comes to people switching just to learn tunnel locations.

Uhhh, I have watched them do it. I've personally observed Nagi, Player and one of the Heelers (I complained about what I saw him do and I think you punished him) doing so. I have to watch them in the game because I know what they do. I can feel the pain of admins who must spend their time watching players on Khe Sahn because not only am I trying to play the game, I'm trying to watch for Nagi to switch and find the tunnel. Nagi does it a little different than Player and BlueHeeler. He switches to find the tunnel on his map then switches back to go blow it up. Player and Blue just switched teams and blow it or pick it up then suicide then switch back.

I'm not making assumptions about anything.

SucceededKiller said:
I've switched teams manually before, sometimes by accidently hitting the other flag, sometimes because the other team is getting slaughtered, although not often as I leave the server to do its thing and depending on the map, me changing isn't going to have much impact. I couldn't tell you where the tunnel was any time I did it, and a lot of the time they don't get moved anyway.

Did you switch for the sole purpose of destroying the tunnel?

SucceededKiller said:
The more you post about it, the more it seems like you want to protect your own style of play (moving tunnels), which is fine, but not at the expense of others. The same goes for enforcing the rules; we do it fairly for everyone, we don't decide x player is more deserving of punishment and slap a higher ban time on them as a result. The base issue you seem to have is with the reporting system though, that's something I can fix, or try to. I've already said evidence is not required for most reports, although it is preferred, and that should help once more players catch on.

Then make a rule that it is ok to switch sides, blow the tunnel, then move back to the blue team. Why have the disruptive rule?

I could care less that players know what I do. They all do anyway.


SucceededKiller said:
mRoRange is right, we can add rule after rule and all it will do is penalise legitimate players more as those that want to break them will find a way and everyone else will accidently fall victim.

I agree, that's why I have asked that admins be given more authority to act like admins.


SucceededKiller said:
I get that you want to give admins the ability to decide punishment, but deliberate or not there will be a bias. Because it's their friend, because they are talking to the person on TeamSpeak and know it was an accident, because they don't like that specific type of gameplay much and what to put an end to it. etc. etc. By having a fixed system in place, none of that is possible.

Baloney. You have an area of the forums for players to report abusive admins. Has anybody filed any complaints lately? When was the last time Nagi complained about being slapped on the wrist?

SucceededKiller said:
If people are switching teams just to find the tunnel, destroy the tunnel, find a player location, steal an aircraft etc. then that's disruptive gameplay. There's nothing fair about it and it should be stopped.

If? Didn't you punish Blueheeler for doing just that? I recorded him. That means he did it, so not an "if". The
"if" is in trying to catch them doing it. I get that you can't stop the cheats 100% of the time.

I think much of my frustration is that even when I go to the effort to catch them, you don't do anything about it. The punishment isn't punishment.

Have you done anything about Nagi raping main in the latest video I posted? What if anything are you going to do and if nothing, why?

SucceededKiller said:
1. I don't want to drive off what's left of the player base with more and more rules and longer and longer bantimes. Or by targeting specific players moreso than others. We already deal with a child like Hash, we don't need to make it any more difficult for people to play.

Targeting specific players? Seriously? How about you target those who violate the rules? You let ABEL drive off how many players? Has Peach been back on the server?

Just to be clear, players can continue to switch teams at any time they like, right?

pinky
 

hard_rice

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Any more pinky I just play. I see players switch sides and suspicious game play is a foot with certain individuals. changing sides sometimes to make a map last longer is not always a bad idea. People abuse the ability to switch teams and I have to admit over the years I have rage quit many times over a forced team switch.

Just think of the players that switch sides and play intentionally disruptive as double agents and agitators that if caught would in the real world would be hung or shot in the field.
 
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TonyB

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Rice, sometimes we gotta eat a shit sandwich. Thing is, the more bread you got, the less shit you gotta eat.

If you are gonna switch, gotta deal with it bit..... lol
 
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