Why do so many people hate Fall of Saigon?

[DenalDouglas]

I don't play online very often, but when I do, I've noticed that a lot of people don't like the map Fall of Saigon. Why exactly is that? I'm looking at improving that map in my new mod, One Point Three, and would like suggestions on how I could make it play better in multiplayer.

 

[agathyus]

I don't hate it for example, but I know it may be better with a few bots or a bit moded

 

[DiscoMagpie]

I personally like it a lot actually, but the issue people bring up the most is that it's too big.

When there's only 12-14 players, and with the amount of tickets (325 I think), it takes a lot of time for players just to find each other on the map, let alone take the spread out flags. Even though there are even larger maps than this one, those usually have a lot of air support available, if not on both teams then at least on one. This one only has a single aircraft, for one team.

The best "cure" for all big maps is a lot of players, but when you don't have that, I'd say a reduced timer or tickets would be a good solution. Considering that you're aiming to create a mod, I'd say a good choice is to add more air vehicles on the map.

The stage is set to be the very end of the war, yet the ones having air support is the ARVN, instead of the PAVN. I'd say giving the North a few MI-8s would be a good idea, even if it curbs the balance on the map. If you can, you could make the South starting with all flags taken, and maybe give them more armor, and even a ticket advantage, if that's possible.

 

[x4|Al Gore]

I love Fall of Saigon and I remember @Petter-Pang! also loves it. I also remember Tina liked it.

I don't think most people hate it. Its very few but very vocal complainers. Majority of the players quietly play along and enjoy it and sometimes even ask for repeating it before it ends; albeit unsuccessfully because in my experience, some admins also don't like Fall of Saigon, Cedar Falls, La Drang, Lang Vei, Con-Thien, Irving, Warden type of maps unfortunately.

Reason 1: Because they get slaughtered by the (guided)-missile truck/vehicle BDRM. In the right hands it can wreak havoc on the Blue team. Nothing can come near the NVA main, or any NVA flag or near the BDRM with a skilled operator like @Jum_P myself, and a few more. Not even a slightly damaged AC-47 Spooky airplane/bomber. Fortunately the AC-47 Spooky can withstand a couple of missiles before blowing up. But this is the ONLY map with BDRM and AC-47 unfortunately. Why hate it?

Another reason I think some people hate it is because of the perception that flags are far apart or its a so called (large map). Ironically, the same people who complain about Fall of Saigon being too big, rarely complain about Hastings and Flaming Dart which are even larger maps. There are plenty of Jeeps and even a few boats to go from 1 flag to the next but they still complain.

A small minority probably hate it because the mains are very easy to capture and have no defenses except tanks. The Blue main can be accessed through water from the West even though there is a moat around it. Once the main is taken, the sole aircraft (Spooky) doesn't spawn anymore and I rarely see successful recaptures of the Blue main. The Red-NVA main is even worse. It is surrounded by a forest on three sides from which Blue players can easily infiltrate and capture it, OR paradrop from the AC-47 Spooky (wink wink Nagi). Again, once the Red main is captured the BDRM doesn't spawn anymore and I rarely see it being recaptured.

Finally a very small minority of very vocal haters of this map are also the same ones who are very good with assault rifles (one shot killers). They get their asses handed to them by the BDRM's missiles or bombs from the AC-47. They prefer well lit city maps to score higher kills than maps such as Fall of Saigon, Cedar Falls, Saigon-68, Warden, La Drang, Lang Vei, Con Thien, and Irving which have all types of combat such as underground, tank, boats, airplanes, helicopters, infantry, artillery, etc. They tried to get these maps removed several times and failed.

Suggestions: I think the mains should either be uncapturable, OR main flags should take a very long time to capture like Albany, OR provide spawn boxes and tunnels (again like Albany) that would reappear even if they get destroyed near main flags. This would allow players to easily recapture unguarded mains. Also add tons of more Jeeps, Vespa's and trucks so every single player can individually go to any other flag quickly. It will also help if these Jeeps and Trucks have higher tolerance to damage. Default BFV Jeeps and trucks are too fragile and get easily damaged with small bumps or under fire.

I believe Fall of Saigon is terrific map just the way it is, except a few minor changes and additions as @agathyus suggested. It gets a bad rap

 

[[U-H]Algam]

It's true, I think the reason is that unfortunately our community really likes helicopters and if you took the helicopters away from Op. Hastings would have the same thing as Fall of Saigon, and as Mr. Gore said there are bigger maps but The difference is that in Op. Flaming Dart it is a mostly aerial combat map and they spend it with the ZSU or the SA-7 because the NVA has to defend the island, in Hastiings on the other hand, since there is not even a jeep but yes 1 plane. each side and 2 helicopters on each side (the worst armed), then everyone goes for the attack helicopters and ignores the light armored vehicles, boats and transport helicopters.


PD: I forgot to say that the infantry spends their time defending flags instead of assaulting

 

[DenalDouglas]

@DiscoMagpie @x4|Al Gore So much to respond to here. I really appreciate both of your replies. Al, I'm going to answer some of the points you brought up, because my mod as a whole addresses some of them, and then lay out the ideas I have for how to fix this map specifically.

1. The BRDM works differently in my mod. Because One Point Three is meant to be bot-friendly and the bots can't fly the BRDM missile accurately, and also because I've never been a fan of the BRDM mechanics anyway, in OPT, the BRDM fires missiles that guide themselves. It's basically the same as the MUTT, but only targets surface vehicles, not aircraft. It won't lock onto aircraft at all. It's also not nearly as powerful in terms of damage. I haven't finished adjusting the damage values in the mod, but it should probably end up being about as powerful as a LAW, since that would be historically accurate.

2. Blue team does have a counter for the BRDM in the form of the M151 MUTT with its TOW missiles. Unlike in the vanilla game, in One Point Three, the guided missiles only lock onto ground targets like the modded BRDM, which is technically accurate. Shot-for-shot, it's more powerful than the BRDM, but still not overpowered, and has fewer missiles.

3. The AC-47 doesn't have bombs or a mobile spawn point anymore in One Point Three. It only seats two players and functions exactly the same as the AC-47 in Operation Remembrance. For anyone who doesn't know, give this a look:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAmRcNat-QI


After considering both of your replies, here are my ideas. As Disco suggested, I can make all of the flags start under Blue team except for Xuan Loc, the flag in the bottom right corner, which would be under Red team. I was already considering it making that flag uncapturable, so that might be the way to go, but it's up for discussion. I would prefer to leave it possible to capture the Blue main base, and maybe these changes will help make that a workable option. I'd like to hear back on this. Capture time could certainly be increased. By the way, the standard capture time for almost all flags in One Point Three is twenty seconds for normal flags and forty-five seconds for mains. Normally I wouldn't consider Saigon's "Blue main" to actually be a main because Blue starts with multiple flags that spawn good equipment, but I could give it the longer capture time here, or even a longer time.

For vehicle spawns, maybe something like this:

1. Xuan Loc (NVA or ARVN):
PK Emplacement (2x) or M60 Emplacement (2x)
M46 (2x) or Nothing
UAZ-469 (3x) or M151 MUTT with M2 Browning MG (3x)
Ural-375D “BM-21 Cargo” or Nothing
BTR-60 or M113
BM-21 or Nothing
BRDM or M8 Greyhound Armored Car
PT-76 or Nothing
T-54 (2x) or Nothing
Mi-8 Gunship or Nothing
Mi-8 Cargo or Nothing
Sampan or PBR

2. Tan Son Nhut Airbase (ARVN or NVA):
M2 Browning Emplacement (2x) or PK Emplacement (2x)
M151 MUTT with M2 Browning MG or UAZ-469
M151 MUTT with TOW anti-tank missiles or UAZ-469
M35 “Nancy” or Nothing
M113 or BTR-60
Patton (2x) or Nothing
OH-6 or Nothing
UH-1 Gunship or Nothing
AC-47 or Nothing
PBR or Sampan

3. Hilltop Ruins (ARVN or NVA):
M151 MUTT with TOW anti-tank missiles or UAZ-469
M110 (2x) or Nothing
Sheridan or PT-76

4. River Village (ARVN or NVA):
M60 Emplacement (2x) or PK Emplacement (2x)
M151 MUTT with M2 Browning MG or UAZ-469
M8 Greyhound Armored Car or BRDM

5. Farmhouse (ARVN or NVA):
M60 Emplacement or PK Emplacement
M151 MUTT with M2 Browning MG or UAZ-469
Sheridan or PT-76

6. River Outpost (ARVN or NVA):
M2 Browning Emplacement (2x) or PK Emplacement (2x)
M151 MUTT with M2 Browning MG or UAZ-469
M151 MUTT with TOW anti-tank missiles or UAZ-469
M50 Ontos or Nothing
Patton (2x) or Nothing
PBR or Sampan

A couple other things: this would mean that Blue team starts out with five flags. Should Red ticket bleeding stop after capturing one flag or two? When should Blue ticket bleeding start? What should the ticket counts start as?

 

[DiscoMagpie]

@DenalDouglas Considering the other changes in vehicles you've already made and consider making for balance, I'd say this map has been mostly balanced. My suggestion for the vehicle list would be to give the PAVN a slight edge.

If you've already changed the way the BRDM and AC-47 work, then the absolute advantage that Red team have on this map is gone. If you're going to add helicopters, maybe give only 1 Huey gunship for ARVN and give 2 MI to the Reds, that way the number of air support is equal, but because in a normal player's game everyone would try to rush down the Reds, they'd need something to break through.

If you decide against adding more air vehicles, then I'd suggest give at least +1 tank and +1 UAZ/BTR to the Red main.

As for main flags, I'd suggest give them increased time as opposed to making them uncapturable. Considering this map is supposed to be the last in the war, either party's flags should be able to be captured, but giving them each a time of at least a full minute would be a good idea.

Finally, I'm split between having Red bleed at two or three flags. Ideally, for accuracy reasons, they should still bleed with 3 flags, but if you give them more tickets compared to Blue it would even out, say if they both start at 300, Red should have 350.

I do suggest giving the whole ticket and flag thing many tests before deciding on a final result. Especially if you aim this mod to be played by bots, you should run this map multiple times with each setting, and seeing how the game goes. If you notice one team having too big of an advantage, you'd make changes accordingly.

I feel like DICE rushed things with the game, and aimed at creating a "balanced" experience, rather than a historical one. Making things realistic while also adding balance is what this game should've been, and if you can make that with your mod it'll truly be great.

 

[DenalDouglas]

@DenalDouglas Considering the other changes in vehicles you've already made and consider making for balance, I'd say this map has been mostly balanced. My suggestion for the vehicle list would be to give the PAVN a slight edge.

If you've already changed the way the BRDM and AC-47 work, then the absolute advantage that Red team have on this map is gone. If you're going to add helicopters, maybe give only 1 Huey gunship for ARVN and give 2 MI to the Reds, that way the number of air support is equal, but because in a normal player's game everyone would try to rush down the Reds, they'd need something to break through.

If you decide against adding more air vehicles, then I'd suggest give at least +1 tank and +1 UAZ/BTR to the Red main.

As for main flags, I'd suggest give them increased time as opposed to making them uncapturable. Considering this map is supposed to be the last in the war, either party's flags should be able to be captured, but giving them each a time of at least a full minute would be a good idea.

Finally, I'm split between having Red bleed at two or three flags. Ideally, for accuracy reasons, they should still bleed with 3 flags, but if you give them more tickets compared to Blue it would even out, say if they both start at 300, Red should have 350.

I do suggest giving the whole ticket and flag thing many tests before deciding on a final result. Especially if you aim this mod to be played by bots, you should run this map multiple times with each setting, and seeing how the game goes. If you notice one team having too big of an advantage, you'd make changes accordingly.

I feel like DICE rushed things with the game, and aimed at creating a "balanced" experience, rather than a historical one. Making things realistic while also adding balance is what this game should've been, and if you can make that with your mod it'll truly be great.

The aircraft balance might not actually be that bad, because the NVA does still have the SA-7, and now it's more effective. It has six rockets instead of three, and is a bit more accurate.

For ground vehicle balance, something else that might help Red team is the BM-21. It actually works the way it should. It fires much faster, two rockets per second, arcs like rocket artillery should, and can use the artillery spot view. I could still easily add another PT-76, though. That would spawn in the same place as the first, once the first has been moved. That flag has so many vehicles now that it's getting a bit crowded.

I think I'll go with what you said for the mains, and make Red just a bit harder to take than Blue. I think 60 seconds for Blue and 80 for Red.

I'll definitely do a lot of testing, especially with the bots. This is the last map I have to finish, and my process for the others has been:
1. Neutral round. I just spectate the bots and let them fight it out.
2. Blue round. Once the neutral round is balanced, I play as Blue team, make sure the map is still balanced, and make chances if needed.
3. Red round. I play as Red team, and again make sure the map is still balanced and make changes as needed. I still have to do the Red round on almost all of the maps, but the Neutral and Blue rounds are done.

I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of realism for gameplay's sake. There are so many things like weapons and vehicles missing that it would be difficult to truly create an accurate portrayal with what's available. One Point Three is just a fun mod seeing how good I can make the game without adding anything new. I save strict realism and accuracy for when I'm working on Operation Remembrance, because with that mod, I allow myself to do whatever I have to in order to create a realistic but still balanced experience. I know the current version of Operation Remembrance does still have some issues, but I think I'm better equipped to fix them now. Stepping back and working on a smaller, simpler mod has allowed me to learn some new things and look at modding a bit differently, so I'm confident that future versions of Operation Remembrance will be much better.

It's really hard to spend any significant amount of time modding BfVietnam and learning how the code works and then come away with the idea that DICE did NOT rush the game. It's kind of obvious once you really get into it. In fact, some of them barely even seemed to know how their own game engine worked. There are so many small mistakes that make certain things not work the way they should. I have some official DICE manuals on modding and editing the AI for Bf1942 and BfVietnam, written by a member of the dev team for both games, and even he admitted that there are commands to make the AI use weapons and vehicles properly that NO ONE, even at DICE, knew how to use correctly.

 

[DiscoMagpie]

The aircraft balance might not actually be that bad, because the NVA does still have the SA-7, and now it's more effective. It has six rockets instead of three, and is a bit more accurate.

For ground vehicle balance, something else that might help Red team is the BM-21. It actually works the way it should. It fires much faster, two rockets per second, arcs like rocket artillery should, and can use the artillery spot view. I could still easily add another PT-76, though. That would spawn in the same place as the first, once the first has been moved. That flag has so many vehicles now that it's getting a bit crowded.

I think I'll go with what you said for the mains, and make Red just a bit harder to take than Blue. I think 60 seconds for Blue and 80 for Red.

I'll definitely do a lot of testing, especially with the bots. This is the last map I have to finish, and my process for the others has been:
1. Neutral round. I just spectate the bots and let them fight it out.
2. Blue round. Once the neutral round is balanced, I play as Blue team, make sure the map is still balanced, and make chances if needed.
3. Red round. I play as Red team, and again make sure the map is still balanced and make changes as needed. I still have to do the Red round on almost all of the maps, but the Neutral and Blue rounds are done.

I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of realism for gameplay's sake. There are so many things like weapons and vehicles missing that it would be difficult to truly create an accurate portrayal with what's available. One Point Three is just a fun mod seeing how good I can make the game without adding anything new. I save strict realism and accuracy for when I'm working on Operation Remembrance, because with that mod, I allow myself to do whatever I have to in order to create a realistic but still balanced experience. I know the current version of Operation Remembrance does still have some issues, but I think I'm better equipped to fix them now. Stepping back and working on a smaller, simpler mod has allowed me to learn some new things and look at modding a bit differently, so I'm confident that future versions of Operation Remembrance will be much better.

It's really hard to spend any significant amount of time modding BfVietnam and learning how the code works and then come away with the idea that DICE did NOT rush the game. It's kind of obvious once you really get into it. In fact, some of them barely even seemed to know how their own game engine worked. There are so many small mistakes that make certain things not work the way they should. I have some official DICE manuals on modding and editing the AI for Bf1942 and BfVietnam, written by a member of the dev team for both games, and even he admitted that there are commands to make the AI use weapons and vehicles properly that NO ONE, even at DICE, knew how to use correctly.

I see, yes indeed, Red main already has a lot more vehicles than most other maps, so just figuring spawn locations would be a pain

I meant realism in terms of what the maps are supposed to be. The game is now very old, compared to a more modern Vietnam game like Rising Storm 2 Vietnam, it's much harder to change, add or modify the game to make it more realistic. For it's age, Battlefield Vietnam must've looked like a very good simulation of the war, but it is clear it is a game meant for entertainment, after all.

Which is why some maps and the conditions for both teams don't make sense. I never really gave it much thought before you asked for feedback on Fall of Saigon, and I realized that the map doesn't make sense as it is, in terms of flag control and armory. They still did a good job, like with Operation Flaming Dart, making 2 locations without main flags at all, etc.

I wish you luck with the mods, and hopefully we'll get to play them in Hello's server too! I definitely want to see a multiplayer experience with the changes you've made.

 

[DenalDouglas]

I see, yes indeed, Red main already has a lot more vehicles than most other maps, so just figuring spawn locations would be a pain

I meant realism in terms of what the maps are supposed to be. The game is now very old, compared to a more modern Vietnam game like Rising Storm 2 Vietnam, it's much harder to change, add or modify the game to make it more realistic. For it's age, Battlefield Vietnam must've looked like a very good simulation of the war, but it is clear it is a game meant for entertainment, after all.

Which is why some maps and the conditions for both teams don't make sense. I never really gave it much thought before you asked for feedback on Fall of Saigon, and I realized that the map doesn't make sense as it is, in terms of flag control and armory. They still did a good job, like with Operation Flaming Dart, making 2 locations without main flags at all, etc.

I wish you luck with the mods, and hopefully we'll get to play them in Hello's server too! I definitely want to see a multiplayer experience with the changes you've made.

Yes, even realism in terms of what the maps are supposed to be can be difficult. Fall of Lang Vei is a great example of that. In Operation Remembrance, I tried to change it so most of the fighting centers on Lang Vei Base itself, but the bots don't work well at all. It's been a continuing annoyance and one of the things in Operation Remembrance that badly needs to be fixed, which I'll do eventually.

We did have a multiplayer event for Operation Remembrance a few years ago when it first came out. I'm hoping for a new one soon, but at this point it would probably be better to wait for the next version. I'm hoping for a Helloclan event for One Point Three as well, for the game's twentieth anniversary.

 

[x4|Al Gore]

the BRDM fires missiles that guide themselves. It's basically the same as the MUTT, but only targets surface vehicles, not aircraft.

BRDM firing self guided missiles will be historically inaccurate.

I think the creators balanced the BRDM with the AC-47 heavy bomber correctly. Nagi and I know how to fly the AC-47 without taking damage from the BRDM's guided missiles and effectively drop bombs to destroy Red team's infantry, tanks, and event the BRDM itself. It's all about skill. The creators also gave the Blue team a slight advantage against the BRDM. Every time the BRDM fires a missile, it momentarily becomes visible on the map and mini-map. This helps the AC-47 locate the BRDM and destroy it.

If I remember correctly, Fall of Saigon does not have MUTT in the Blue team, so adding them will be a significant addition to Blue team's firepower.

For me the best fun in Fall of Saigon is the BRDM's TV-Guided missiles and AC-47's numerous heavy bombs. If you take away BRDM's AT-1 Snapper anti-tank missiles which is historically accurate and the heavy bombs of the AC-47, then its not really the same experience in Fall of Saigon anymore.

Like Agathyus and I said, this map is great by itself and needs very little change and very minor additions.

 

[DenalDouglas]

BRDM firing self guided missiles will be historically inaccurate.

I think the creators balanced the BRDM with the AC-47 heavy bomber correctly. Nagi and I know how to fly the AC-47 without taking damage from the BRDM's guided missiles and effectively drop bombs to destroy Red team's infantry, tanks, and event the BRDM itself. It's all about skill. The creators also gave the Blue team a slight advantage against the BRDM. Every time the BRDM fires a missile, it momentarily becomes visible on the map and mini-map. This helps the AC-47 locate the BRDM and destroy it.

If I remember correctly, Fall of Saigon does not have MUTT in the Blue team, so adding them will be a significant addition to Blue team's firepower.

For me the best fun in Fall of Saigon is the BRDM's TV-Guided missiles and AC-47's numerous heavy bombs. If you take away BRDM's AT-1 Snapper anti-tank missiles which is historically accurate and the heavy bombs of the AC-47, then its not really the same experience in Fall of Saigon anymore.

Like Agathyus and I said, this map is great by itself and needs very little change and very minor additions.

Self-guided missiles are the best compromise between the historically-accurate AT-3 Sagger MCLOS missiles the BRDM fired (this is the 9P110 version with AT-3s, not the 9P27 with AT-1s, indicated by the fact that there are six missiles, not three, and the launcher has a roof over it) and what the AI are capable of doing, unfortunately. I've tried to make them use the manually-guided missiles and it hasn't worked at all. On the matter of historical accuracy, I've never even been able to confirm with 100% certainty that the 9P110 was used in the Vietnam War. The BRDM certainly was, as was the AT-3 Sagger, but I don't know if the 9P110 specifically saw service. I've debated combining the driver and gunner's positions on the BRDM into one, like a tank, but I'm not sure if that would be a good idea or not.

The AC-47 wasn't a bomber, just a gunship, thus the "A" in the designation to indicate a ground-attack aircraft. Given the mechanics of how it works in One Point Three, I would say it's a unique experience even without the bombs. And both it and the BRDM have appearances in multiple maps in my mod, so it's a bit more important to make sure that they aren't overpowered on their own. I have the BRDM on maps that don't have the AC-47, and vice versa, so they really should be balanced so they aren't the only effective counter for each other.

You're right, the original version of the map only has the unarmed MUTT, which in OPT has been converted to add an M2 Browning machine gun. I've also added a couple of TOW-armed MUTTs. One thing about the TOWs, though, is that they aren't extremely maneuverable. You have to have a visual of your target or at least a very good idea of where it is, and be aimed roughly at it or you won't hit it anyway. Another thing that I think will help balance it out is the asymmetry between the MUTT and the BRDM: the ARVN has more of them (3x MUTT vs 2x BRDM), and they're faster and more maneuverable than the BRDM, but the BRDM is tougher and has twelve missiles to the MUTT's six.

I've experimented with a flag/vehicle set-up virtually identical to the one I laid out above, and so far it seems to work reasonably well with bots. But I think it's safe to say that only actual testing can tell if it will work on multiplayer or not.

 

[Petter-Pang!]

I love Fall of Saigon and I remember @Petter-Pang! also loves it. I also remember Tina liked it.

I don't think most people hate it. Its very few but very vocal complainers. Majority of the players quietly play along and enjoy it and sometimes even ask for repeating it before it ends; albeit unsuccessfully because in my experience, some admins also don't like Fall of Saigon, Cedar Falls, La Drang, Lang Vei, Con-Thien, Irving, Warden type of maps unfortunately.

Reason 1: Because they get slaughtered by the (guided)-missile truck/vehicle BDRM. In the right hands it can wreak havoc on the Blue team. Nothing can come near the NVA main, or any NVA flag or near the BDRM with a skilled operator like @Jum_P myself, and a few more. Not even a slightly damaged AC-47 Spooky airplane/bomber. Fortunately the AC-47 Spooky can withstand a couple of missiles before blowing up. But this is the ONLY map with BDRM and AC-47 unfortunately. Why hate it?

Another reason I think some people hate it is because of the perception that flags are far apart or its a so called (large map). Ironically, the same people who complain about Fall of Saigon being too big, rarely complain about Hastings and Flaming Dart which are even larger maps. There are plenty of Jeeps and even a few boats to go from 1 flag to the next but they still complain.

A small minority probably hate it because the mains are very easy to capture and have no defenses except tanks. The Blue main can be accessed through water from the West even though there is a moat around it. Once the main is taken, the sole aircraft (Spooky) doesn't spawn anymore and I rarely see successful recaptures of the Blue main. The Red-NVA main is even worse. It is surrounded by a forest on three sides from which Blue players can easily infiltrate and capture it, OR paradrop from the AC-47 Spooky (wink wink Nagi). Again, once the Red main is captured the BDRM doesn't spawn anymore and I rarely see it being recaptured.

Finally a very small minority of very vocal haters of this map are also the same ones who are very good with assault rifles (one shot killers). They get their asses handed to them by the BDRM's missiles or bombs from the AC-47. They prefer well lit city maps to score higher kills than maps such as Fall of Saigon, Cedar Falls, Saigon-68, Warden, La Drang, Lang Vei, Con Thien, and Irving which have all types of combat such as underground, tank, boats, airplanes, helicopters, infantry, artillery, etc. They tried to get these maps removed several times and failed.

Suggestions: I think the mains should either be uncapturable, OR main flags should take a very long time to capture like Albany, OR provide spawn boxes and tunnels (again like Albany) that would reappear even if they get destroyed near main flags. This would allow players to easily recapture unguarded mains. Also add tons of more Jeeps, Vespa's and trucks so every single player can individually go to any other flag quickly. It will also help if these Jeeps and Trucks have higher tolerance to damage. Default BFV Jeeps and trucks are too fragile and get easily damaged with small bumps or under fire.

I believe Fall of Saigon is terrific map just the way it is, except a few minor changes and additions as @agathyus suggested. It gets a bad rap

hehe, you remember correctly! I love the map because of different reasons, one of them is the mood of the entire map...you feel you can wander a bit without being killed, and if you know a thing or two you can have alot of fun without being found right away. Furtermore its a mortar-mans-map as well as road mines if placed correctly..have in mind that if Nagi is on your team you are likely to get alot og TKs since he does not press Q to see friendly mines, ever.

and for those who master the art of aiming, you have an edge during the war, its an infantry map so to speak but hardware also counts but tanks and planes can be bothered quickly.

That being said, you need atleast 10 people who know how to play the map, to get the most out of it.

 

[DenalDouglas]

Have in mind that if Nagi is on your team you are likely to get a lot of TKs since he does not press Q to see friendly mines, ever.

Nagi never watches for anyone's mines, period. I still vividly remember a match on Operation Cedar Falls. I was just entering the northeast tunnel entrance, and there were three mines blocking my way around a corner. I paused to try to decide if I could trigger them and run back around the corner before they detonated, and then before I could do anything, Nagi came charging around the corner at full speed, set off all the mines, and died. I was in voice chat at the time, and I think @IceSkater might even remember the choked yelp I made when Nagi ran past me and I instinctively tried to yell to warn him about the mines even though he wasn't in voice chat.